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It's not easy, however, it's not worth it. My husband went to DeVry, got kicked out (long story) and every day he thanks his lucky stars that the school kicked him out early. He didn't owe much money.
He paid it all off easily, while his colleagues went on to graduate with degrees in Programming, $60k+ in debt and having a terrible time finding jobs, because most of the programming jobs goes to India or China.
A good thing about DeVry though is that some of its classes DO transfer to state university so he got some credits. Now he's going for ThermoDynamics/Physics... don't really know but he wants to study Energy. One of his dreams is to create a sustainable energy source that doesn't hurt the environment and is applicable to anything from cars to planes to microwaves to computers, etc.
There's a demand for programming, just not for programming graduates from DeVry.
I never graduated from DeVry or state university. Three years ago, my employer announced a mass layoff due to a sale of the company. I studied at home for 3 months and took a SQL certification. I landed a new job paying $75k/yr. Earlier this job, I was looking for more programming work and got 9 calls out of 15 resumes. They were offering $85-90k/yr with bonuses of $5-15k.
I have met many other self-taught guys that are in programming jobs that with non-programming majors(e.g. English, Communications, History, etc) or never graduated college.
That's pretty good money for an American HS graduate, when all the programming jobs are going to India/China.
Last edited by move4ward; 09-16-2014 at 09:15 PM..
Both are stereotypes. Declaring that STEM majors have poor social skills is just as offensive as the declaration that you are too "dumb" to major in a STEM field.
That is so true. People with STEM jobs and degrees doesn't always have great communication skills. One factor could be due to their personality type. My husband works in the science field and he often mentions how many of his colleagues are introverts, or just socially awkward. Certainly, there is nothing bad about that, but to proclaim that STEM people are better and smarter is an unfair assessment. It makes it sound as though they are more valuable than others who chose different career paths. I don't disagree with the notion of STEM people making lucrative salaries. My husband is one of them. I'm not complaining, lol. However, the STEM=better stereotype shouldn't be encouraged. Making lots of money is only good if that is one's ultimate goal. Otherwise, if one is not happy working in the STEM field then what benefit is that to anyone? Imagine a world with just geeks and nerds; no artists, chefs, musicians, etc... What a dull and depressing place that would be! We truly must pursue our passion and what we are good at doing. The money will follow.
Definitely get as much Math and Science in school/college as that is always useful in any career as well as in all aspects of life. Combine that with great communication and interpersonal skills and surely you will standout and be easily recognized. My husband is in upper management and have worked with and interviewed numerous college grads who exudes the self-entitled I-have-a-science/math-with-PhD-MD attitude, therefore I deserve a job pronto. Zero charisma; poor communication skills! Quite a few have typos and grammatical errors on their resume and cover letter Needless to say, arrogant people STEM or not don't get a second interview.
I used to be a math major. I can attest to this. Soooo many of my classmates did not know how to communicate. Working on a group project/assignment? Good luck getting anything coherent out of their mouths. You'll also spend hours and hours fixing their writing for them.
I don't know if it's just the kind of person I am or the experiences I've had, but I'm usually really great at communication and interpersonal skills. My professors have always commented on how well I can write and present my ideas. I'm also very comfortable with public speaking, something most people are terrified of.
Also, the people in math club at my college tended to have really elitist attitudes because they were math majors, or were super quiet. Ugh.
Why do you feel there aren't any "diploma mills" in New Jersey? I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There are many schools across the nation that are diploma mills.
Take a look at the grant proposals that are awarded from the NSF and alike. Penn State is hardly anywhere near the top.
I'm very familiar with Penn State, btw. I didn't attend but I have taught there, peer reviewed papers there, and evaluated the university for regional accreditation.
Funny that you review papers but you read the first sentence of my post incorrectly. I asked why YOU feel there aren't any diploma mills in NJ, which I believe is implied by the fact that you chose Penn State as your example. I was not, in any way suggesting that I don't think there are no diploma mills in NJ.
Back then there were plenty of alternatives. You could get a union manufacturing job right out of high school. Today it's been replaced by service industry jobs that largely are part time and do not pay a living wage.
Good point. Only two generations ago, it was possible for the majority of male Americans to complete their free public education and obtain jobs they could expect to hold for decades and would be paid adequately that they could afford to support not only themselves but their wives and children. If they applied themselves, stayed healthy, and lived modestly, they were able to buy their own homes and take vacations. Our public education and job opportunities that gave this country a huge middle-class are what made the United States the envy of the world. To some degree many people in other countries think it's still like that here.
I keep seeing on these threads, people complaining they cannot get a job and are trying to get into other fields. I see an awful lot of them are trying to get jobs that require a degree in that field, and the simply cannot understand why their degree can not get them the job even if they have not knowledge or experience in the field. They think someone should hire them and train them in the other field, and complain no one wants t o hire and train people like them. A couple of sentences later in their post, say that as soon as they can get trained they will leave and get a higher paid job. Who would want to train them for a couple of years, to have them leave as soon as they are trained.
Training people is simply the cost of doing business. Even with experience it makes hardly any sense for some private company to do things 100% like their competitors.
In technology people jump ship all the time. That's how people get experience to start up their own place. Silicon Valley would be utterly empty if it was not for this fact.
Most companies are founded by someone that worked for another and started it with coworkers or friends that also worked there. That's how Apple was formed, that's how Electronic Arts was formed, Activision was formed and so forth. AT&T, Motorola, IBM and how many others had other companies spun off of them and yet hardly anyone complained about providing training.
Besides if an organization doesn't take the initiatives to train and another does how does that make them look?
I'm in Mass and as a state we have some training and policies that others do not have. I just took a training class of which the state has been involved since 1997. Meanwhile Alaska just started doing this LAST year. So what looks better in terms of training? Think we'd hire someone for Alaska for this? Probably not.
Why do people say the bolded? My brother is a software engineer and does a ton of programming. He works in the US and got paid near 6 figures right out of grad school in Atlanta. The very basic programming might get outsourced but the really technical builds and innovative designs are still largely here. He said they send their very basic work over to China, but anything beyond basic programming they do themselves.
This is my experience as well. Basically any programming project that takes longer than 10-15 minutes to explain doesn't get outsourced. The reasons are complicated but in a nutshell the American schools teach more "creative thinking" and that is required to solve the complex problems. It is my understanding that Devry also teaches the low level programming and employers do not have a lot of trust in the programs which makes it difficult to find work.
I was involved in some projects where there was discussion of outsourcing marketing projects and we realized it wasn't worth it. It required too much explaining and we had to basically redo most stuff anyway.
I used to be a math major. I can attest to this. Soooo many of my classmates did not know how to communicate. Working on a group project/assignment? Good luck getting anything coherent out of their mouths. You'll also spend hours and hours fixing their writing for them.
I don't know if it's just the kind of person I am or the experiences I've had, but I'm usually really great at communication and interpersonal skills. My professors have always commented on how well I can write and present my ideas. I'm also very comfortable with public speaking, something most people are terrified of.
Also, the people in math club at my college tended to have really elitist attitudes because they were math majors, or were super quiet. Ugh.
Bad communication skills exist in any field; it's not particular to one line of work!
I do agree with a lot of elitist attitudes from students in math and also physics. Even taking lower level physics classes, I hated doing labs because it was just a huge chest-puffing nerd sausage fest (ladies being underrepresented). Good for you, you solved the problem 10 seconds faster than that other guy, wow, did you do that equation in your head? My my, why don't they have you teaching this class already? One student thought he was so much better than everyone else, that he finished the lab alone without consulting anyone because we were "too slow" and he understood everything so why are we still doing this, blah blah, and then left half-way through the class without performing any of the experiments with us. Turns out, he got most of the problems wrong.
But again, this seems to be something that happens in a lot of different fields.
The main reason why people get useless degrees is because the curriculum is easy and basically a joke. The fact of the matter is that not everyone has the intellectual capability and commitment to get a degree in engineering, accounting, or computer science.
Common graduate programs that people with useless degrees tend to purse is JD, PsyD, MBA, Master in useless subject.
If you have a useless degree and don't want to do sales, what are your options at a good paying white collar job?
if the only option is a "useless degree," then perhaps working is a better move than 6+ years of college in the prime years of one's life.
Bad communication skills exist in any field; it's not particular to one line of work!
I do agree with a lot of elitist attitudes from students in math and also physics. Even taking lower level physics classes, I hated doing labs because it was just a huge chest-puffing nerd sausage fest (ladies being underrepresented). Good for you, you solved the problem 10 seconds faster than that other guy, wow, did you do that equation in your head? My my, why don't they have you teaching this class already? One student thought he was so much better than everyone else, that he finished the lab alone without consulting anyone because we were "too slow" and he understood everything so why are we still doing this, blah blah, and then left half-way through the class without performing any of the experiments with us. Turns out, he got most of the problems wrong.
But again, this seems to be something that happens in a lot of different fields.
Oh, of course! Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant based on my personal experience as a former math major. I'm sure other majors/fields just have elitist people in general.
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I'm not complaining, lol. However, the STEM=better stereotype shouldn't be encouraged. Making lots of money is only good if that is one's ultimate goal. Otherwise, if one is not happy working in the STEM field then what benefit is that to anyone? Imagine a world with just geeks and nerds; no artists, chefs, musicians, etc... What a dull and depressing place that would be! We truly must pursue our passion and what we are good at doing. The money will follow.
Needless to say, arrogant people STEM or not don't get a second interview.
