Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I live in the South. Trust me when I say, the fight for equality is not over. Where do you all live? I need to move to this utopia.
There is a thread on here about a waiter writing the n word on a receipt. Miost of the posters on that thread defended the waiter, citing that he was right to do as he did because black people don't tip.
Read the very disrespectful thread on the passing of Maya Angelou.
I have many more examples.
I don't think the masses here are saying racism isn't alive and well, although in some of our relationships it doesn't exist. The post you cite is proof of it. I recently saw one study saying racism is on the rise again.
But the example the op gave does not describe racism, and what some are doing by trying to say it does, tends to get people so frustrated that they step away from the discussion being done with the topic for all time. Instead of gaining defenders against a real problem, you lose support in the battle against racism. And I honestly think that's part of the dynamic in society.
I'll explain it in another way. When feminism became an important thread in society, companies were trying to be more empathetic and implemented policies and really listened to women who had complaints. I worked in one of those companies. And everyone was on board and ready to fight this real problem until a couple of the women started calling everything sexist. I was low in the organization but recall a beloved VP doing battle with a woman who said he was sexist because he made a statement at a meeting, followed by a wink at her. He used to wink at whoever caught his eye after making a statement made to wake people up. He winked at me more than once and I'm a man, so it had nothing to do with being sexist. She and her buddy complained when men held the door open for them, or put their hand on their back to guide them to go first and a number of other things I can no longer recall.
By the time she and her buddy got done calling everything sexist and filing complaints - NOBODY was on board anymore. Not even most of the women.
And you'll note most of the people have stopped posting and trying to sort this out because they're tired of the discussion.
What the op described was not racism and continuing to say it is won't make it so. All you're doing is losing defenders against a real problem by banging the same insignificant drum over and over again.
When I say I am racist, I mean to say I tend to assume certain things about large groups of people based on my experience with them.
For example, I went to a certain place to help with poor people. I spent three years there. I had no beef with these people - I in fact was going there specifically to help.
There was a predominant race of people there (~several hundred thousand - I personally interacted with several thousand closely and was amongst daily probably another ten or twenty thousand).
They were absolutely appalling in their behavior and beliefs about their duties to other people and their duties as citizens. They treated women disgustingly and seemed to have little or no self control with regards to food and alcohol.
Now I stand firmly in my belief that while I have met a few good ones here and there, it's not a group/culture that I want anything to do with as a whole.
I don't think that is racist. You, based upon first hand experience, have formed an opinion about a group of people who were behaving badly. To be racist, per the definition, you'd have to reject ALL people from a particular race, not just some or many but ALL. Everyone of us, regardless of our race, has formed opinions about other people based upon their behavior or character and that does not make us racist. I can tell you that I have certainly formed negative opinions about other people of ALL races based upon their behaviors, choices, lack of integrity, etc but that doesn't make me a racist anymore than it makes you one.
I don't think the masses here are saying racism isn't alive and well, although in some of our relationships it doesn't exist. The post you cite is proof of it. I recently saw one study saying racism is on the rise again.
But the example the op gave does not describe racism, and what some are doing by trying to say it does, tends to get people so frustrated that they step away from the discussion being done with the topic for all time. Instead of gaining defenders against a real problem, you lose support in the battle against racism. And I honestly think that's part of the dynamic in society.
I'll explain it in another way. When feminism became an important thread in society, companies were trying to be more empathetic and implemented policies and really listened to women who had complaints. I worked in one of those companies. And everyone was on board and ready to fight this real problem until a couple of the women started calling everything sexist. I was low in the organization but recall a beloved VP doing battle with a woman who said he was sexist because he made a statement at a meeting, followed by a wink at her. He used to wink at whoever caught his eye after making a statement made to wake people up. He winked at me more than once and I'm a man, so it had nothing to do with being sexist. She and her buddy complained when men held the door open for them, or put their hand on their back to guide them to go first and a number of other things I can no longer recall.
By the time she and her buddy got done calling everything sexist and filing complaints - NOBODY was on board anymore. Not even most of the women.
And you'll note most of the people have stopped posting and trying to sort this out because they're tired of the discussion.
What the op described was not racism and continuing to say it is won't make it so. All you're doing is losing defenders against a real problem by banging the same insignificant drum over and over again.
As says a middle aged presumably white male who is unaffected by the above issues.
Look the Original Poster's comments were describing a situation that was racist. Why?
The litmus test is simple, would the said individual described have asked those questions if the OP was a WASP with blonde hair and blue eyes? NO
Thus race and assumptions that come with it, formed the main part of why the individual asked those questions.
Re feminism, I find it hilarious when people (typically men) say they are tired of the debate (YAWN). Of course when an issue doesn't affect you, you can easily switch off and state 'carry on as usual'. Sexism affects women in multitude of ways and only when you truly dig deeper you can see the often glaring discrepancies.
I had an Aunt who opened my eyes to Sexism when I was a kid, when she asked me "Have the majority of your teachers been men or women?" without hesitation I responded "women".
"Ok" she said "Now tell me how many Headteachers/Principals have been women??"
And that is the point..
If the interaction between two individuals is different because of gender or race, then sexism or racism probably plays a part.
Post racialism means racial differences don't matter. I always find it amusing when mentoring little school kids in places like London who haven't got ingrained notions of race (In America racial thinking sadly starts a lot earlier). If you ask a young white kid to point out a black peer in his school, he will often say "you see the kid with short hair, tiny eyes and wearing the bright red T shirt, there he is". No mention of him being black is ever made and amazingly that changes in a few short years as society does its job of classifying everyone..
If you don't get it after those anecdotal examples, then in truth you don't want to...
Last edited by nograviti; 01-16-2015 at 09:46 AM..
Reason: grammar
I don't think the masses here are saying racism isn't alive and well, although in some of our relationships it doesn't exist. The post you cite is proof of it. I recently saw one study saying racism is on the rise again.
But the example the op gave does not describe racism, and what some are doing by trying to say it does, tends to get people so frustrated that they step away from the discussion being done with the topic for all time. Instead of gaining defenders against a real problem, you lose support in the battle against racism. And I honestly think that's part of the dynamic in society.
I'll explain it in another way. When feminism became an important thread in society, companies were trying to be more empathetic and implemented policies and really listened to women who had complaints. I worked in one of those companies. And everyone was on board and ready to fight this real problem until a couple of the women started calling everything sexist. I was low in the organization but recall a beloved VP doing battle with a woman who said he was sexist because he made a statement at a meeting, followed by a wink at her. He used to wink at whoever caught his eye after making a statement made to wake people up. He winked at me more than once and I'm a man, so it had nothing to do with being sexist. She and her buddy complained when men held the door open for them, or put their hand on their back to guide them to go first and a number of other things I can no longer recall.
By the time she and her buddy got done calling everything sexist and filing complaints - NOBODY was on board anymore. Not even most of the women.
And you'll note most of the people have stopped posting and trying to sort this out because they're tired of the discussion.
What the op described was not racism and continuing to say it is won't make it so. All you're doing is losing defenders against a real problem by banging the same insignificant drum over and over again.
OH MY GOSH!!!!! You have NAILED it perfectly MPowering1!!!! And provided a GREAT example of what I've been thinking for a long time but just didn't know how to express it. I've been concerned for a while about how race relations in our country has gone so far backwards that it'll take years to bring it back to where it was even 5 years ago. It is beyond ridiculous how EVERYTHING is now racist. I read another thread about a cartoon (Thomas the Train) being racist because one train (the good guy, Thomas) blew white smoke and the other train (the bad guy) blew black smoke. The one accusing the cartoon apparently didn't take the time to actually watch the show to understand why the different colors of smoke. Thomas blew white smoke because he is a steam engine and steam engines blow white smoke. The other train was a diesel engine and diesel engines blow black smoke. I'm just so sad to see the REAL issue of racism being over shadowed by so many faux claims of it. And you are right, people are getting TIRED of it to the point we don't even want to talk about it anymore because it's just a waste of our time and energy. It's crazy that in my almost 50 years on this planet, I never heard the terms "race baiter" or "white privilege" or "white guilt" until just a few years ago. Hell, I didn't even know who Al Sharpton was either and now he's on my TV every other day spewing nonsense and encouraging this faux racism instead of focusing on REAL race issues. I just pray that it gets better and quickly
As says a middle aged presumably white male who is unaffected by the above issues.
Look the Original Poster's comments were describing a situation that was racist. Why?
The litmus test is simple, would the said individual described have asked those questions if the OP was a WASP with blonde hair and blue eyes? NO
Thus race and assumptions that come with it, formed the main part of why the individual asked those questions.
Re feminism, I find it hilarious when people (typically men) say they are tired of the debate (YAWN). Of course when an issue doesn't affect you, you can easily switch off and state 'carry on as usual'. Sexism affects women in multitude of ways and only when you truly dig deeper you can see the often glaring discrepancies.
I had an Aunt who opened my eyes to Sexism when I was a kid, when she asked me "Have the majority of your teachers been men or women?" without hesitation I responded "women".
"Ok" she said "Now tell me how many Headteachers/Principals have been women??"
And that is the point..
If the interaction between two individuals is different because of gender or race, then sexism or racism probably plays a part.
Post racialism means racial differences don't matter. I always find it amusing when mentoring little school kids in places like London who haven't got ingrained notions of race (In America racial thinking sadly starts a lot earlier). If you ask a young white kid to point out a black peer in his school, he will often say "you see the kid with short hair, tiny eyes and wearing the bright red T shirt, there he is". No mention of him being black is ever made and amazingly that changes in a few short years as society does its job of classifying everyone..
If you don't get it after those anecdotal examples, then in truth you don't want to...
Nograviti, it's actually YOU that doesn't "get it". People are getting absolutely ridiculous with the race card, it's being pulled out for every stinking thing under the sun regardless of it being racist or not. As a result, people are getting frustrated and TIRED of it and they are just opting out of the conversation about racism because we are just beating our heads against the wall. This thread is a prime example of faux racism that is being made out to be real racism and it just isn't.
REAL racism is denying you a job or a promotion strictly because of the color of your skin. REAL racism is you being denied to rent an apartment or buy a house in a certain neighborhood because of the color of your skin. REAL racism is not allowing you to vote because of the color of your skin. THESE are the REAL battles we need to be fighting but people are so tired of the faux racism claims muddying the waters they are giving up fighting the REAL problem altogether.
You assume that because this poster is "presumably a middle aged white male" that he has no skin in the game to end racism and that he couldn't possibly understand the plight of one who has been discriminated against. We, regardless of race, gender, whatever have ALL felt discrimination and some of us feel it on a daily basis. NEWS FLASH: Black folks are not the only race that experiences racism. We ALL have skin in the game to end discriminatory practices. For you, and anyone else, to think white people don't "get it" simply because of the color of our skin (which is racist, by the way) and vilifying us as a result is NOT going to help stop the practice of discrimination it's only going to make it worse.
Nograviti, you're just one more person in need of education.
Prejudice is any prejudgment or assumption about someone, either favorable or unfavorable, before having sufficient knowledge to judge with accuracy. Preconceived feelings, opinions or attitudes regarding an ethnic, racial, social or religious group. NOT ILLEGAL.
Stereotyping is the belief that groups of people have the same characteristics or behavior. NOT ILLEGAL.
Racism is the belief that members of certain races are superior and other races are inferior. Racism is based on stereotypes and prejudice, but not all people who are prejudiced or who stereotype are racist. Racism is also behavior that is discriminatory or abusive towards members of another race based on the false belief that they are inferior. THE LATTER IS ILLEGAL.
Examples:
Prejudice - The assumption that your neighbor who is a lawyer is shifty and an ambulance chaser. The assumption that someone whose last name is Alvarez is fluent in Spanish. The assumption that someone who looks Asian wasn't born in America. The assumption that Muslims are not Americans.
Stereotypes - The notion that all Irishmen drink a lot. The belief that Calabrese are hard headed or that Sicilians are shady and low class. The belief that all black people eat fried chicken and watermelon. The thought that people who are Jewish or Italian have big noses. The notion that all Muslims are terrorists.
Racism - Believing that white people are superior to other races. Refusing to rent to Indians. Refusing to hire black people. Refusing to do business with Mexicans.
Racist - one who believes their racial group is superior, and people in other racial groups are inferior. A person who practices racism by discriminating against groups of people.
The woman described by the op showed prejudice - that does not make her racist.
Last edited by MPowering1; 01-16-2015 at 10:58 AM..
just a vent.. i've experienced more subtle and not so subtle racism in my year living in WA than the past 20 years in CA. today was my first day at my new job. i was being introduced around and one lady says to me:
RB (Racist BXXXX)-- so what's your first language?
ME: What do you mean? i only know one language, English
RB: Surely you must know another language. English can't be your first language
ME: Why would you think English is not my first language (with death glare)
RB: (stumbling around) I just thought... well, with your background... (slow fade)
ME: SMH ...
another day in WA, another unpleasant experience with an ignorant RB...
Appears to me that she was attempting to have a conversation with someone she knew nothing about and completely misfired.
Appears to me that she was attempting to have a conversation with someone she knew nothing about and completely misfired.
Not racist.
[awkward, but not racist]
I see that we still have people joining this thread who (understandably) chose not to read through the 20+ pages of posts before replying. Allow me to fill in some of the details.
The OP is someone of Asian heritage who was born and raised in the states. She has a degree in English and speaks it with no accent and has not encountered any race-specific incidents in the state where she used to reside. She recently moved to a new state and started a new job, and on her first day had this exchange with "RB" right after they were introduced. Having lived with, and gotten used to, people (white, black, Asian, Latino, etc.) who knew how to act around people with different backgrounds she found the encounter to be jarring and griped about it in an online forum, neglecting to fill in all essential details.
Since the encounter that left a bad taste in her mouth is race-related (i.e. it would not have taken place if it were not for her race) she used the "r" word to label it, not realizing that many people have strong feelings regarding how that term should be defined in relation to other, similar words like "bigotry" or "prejudice."
I see that we still have people joining this thread who (understandably) chose not to read through the 20+ pages of posts before replying. Allow me to fill in some of the details.
The OP is someone of Asian heritage who was born and raised in the states. She has a degree in English and speaks it with no accent and has not encountered any race-specific incidents in the state where she used to reside. She recently moved to a new state and started a new job, and on her first day had this exchange with "RB" right after they were introduced. Having lived with, and gotten used to, people (white, black, Asian, Latino, etc.) who knew how to act around people with different backgrounds she found the encounter to be jarring and griped about it in an online forum, neglecting to fill in all essential details.
Since the encounter that left a bad taste in her mouth is race-related (i.e. it would not have taken place if it were not for her race) she used the "r" word to label it, not realizing that many people have strong feelings regarding how that term should be defined in relation to other, similar words like "bigotry" or "prejudice."
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
I think a lot of us missed that she's of Asian heritage. Can you point out the post you found that in this thread?
Nograviti, you're just one more person in need of education.
Prejudice is any prejudgment or assumption about someone, either favorable or unfavorable, before having sufficient knowledge to judge with accuracy. Preconceived feelings, opinions or attitudes regarding an ethnic, racial, social or religious group. NOT ILLEGAL.
Stereotyping is the belief that groups of people have the same characteristics or behavior. NOT ILLEGAL.
Racism is the belief that members of certain races are superior and other races are inferior. Racism is based on stereotypes and prejudice, but not all people who are prejudiced or who stereotype are racist. Racism is also behavior that is discriminatory or abusive towards members of another race based on the false belief that they are inferior. THE LATTER IS ILLEGAL.
Examples:
Prejudice - The assumption that your neighbor who is a lawyer is shifty and an ambulance chaser. The assumption that someone whose last name is Alvarez is fluent in Spanish. The assumption that someone who looks Asian wasn't born in America. The assumption that Muslims are not Americans.
Stereotypes - The notion that all Irishmen drink a lot. The belief that Calabrese are hard headed or that Sicilians are shady and low class. The belief that all black people eat fried chicken and watermelon. The thought that people who are Jewish or Italian have big noses. The notion that all Muslims are terrorists.
Racism - Believing that white people are superior to other races. Refusing to rent to Indians. Refusing to hire black people. Refusing to do business with Mexicans.
Racist - one who believes their racial group is superior, and people in other racial groups are inferior. A person who practices racism by discriminating against groups of people.
The woman described by the op showed prejudice - that does not make her racist.
You can quote as many definitions by mainly white academic men (which is part of the problem in itself).
Your own world view will define how you see the world. Its the reason why as a male I never try to pretend I fully understand sexism. I cant as I am a man and in some respects consciously or unconsciously part of the problem.
I am sorry, Racism comes in many shades of grey and for me what you have defined as prejudice / stereotyping is very much a component of Racism.
If it wasn't, the sort of prejudice and stereotyping which led to the Zimmerman and numerous other recent cases would not have been viewed by the African American community as examples of Racism!!
What is most interesting is that most of the posters including yourself have not even attempted to address my arguments. But merely rolled out the typical mainstream ad hominem responses to the question of racism/prejudice and stereotyping.
Illegal or not, they are a problem. I personally think Stereotyping and Prejudice should be frowned upon and tangible products of it (like a higher stop and search rate for innocent black and hispanic teens or biased hiring patterns) should be made illegal.
Prejudice : So not hiring a black or Hispanic worker due to unfavorable opinions of that person's ethnic group is ok to you??
Stereotyping : So assuming any black male who approaches you is going to mug you or if you are a white female rape you is again ok to you??
Sorry, but the lines between what you have defined as racist and not racist are not so clear when you actually bother to look at them in more detail..
Last edited by nograviti; 01-16-2015 at 01:15 PM..
Reason: grammar
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
