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This is the most ridiculous accusation I've heard yet. REALLY?? Everybody would benefit if everyone were doing well economically.
No where have I said Whites should be vilified, I was pointing out why there is an innate difference between racism from minorities vis a vis whites due to economic power.
Also I pointed out how all things being equal, the outcomes for whites and blacks who are unskilled should be the same. They are not, which shows racism effects the latter group more.
Finally no where have I advocated affirmative action, I have argued for fair and level hiring practices which is currently not the case.
For a man who says he is part of those who want to fight those who resistance to change, you seem well versed in the typical tactics used by those who want to muddy the water when discussing racism
As for the rest of your arguments, as I said you don't wish to understand...
The OP was an example of prejudice and stereotyping, not racism.
Words matter, y'all.
That article is hardly an authoritative source for defining prejudice, bigotry, and racism. Using its definitions, I would characterize the incident as bigotry. It was not a "private thought," but a series of verbal expressions directed at the OP.
I think that racism is bigotry on the basis of race, but that institutional racism is actually a separate category--the "old equation" of bigotry + power. On the basis of OP, this is not institutional racism. It is plain vanilla, or "personal racism."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
I don't think the masses here are saying racism isn't alive and well, although in some of our relationships it doesn't exist. The post you cite is proof of it. I recently saw one study saying racism is on the rise again.
But the example the op gave does not describe racism, and what some are doing by trying to say it does, tends to get people so frustrated that they step away from the discussion being done with the topic for all time. Instead of gaining defenders against a real problem, you lose support in the battle against racism. And I honestly think that's part of the dynamic in society.
I'll explain it in another way. When feminism became an important thread in society, companies were trying to be more empathetic and implemented policies and really listened to women who had complaints. I worked in one of those companies. And everyone was on board and ready to fight this real problem until a couple of the women started calling everything sexist. I was low in the organization but recall a beloved VP doing battle with a woman who said he was sexist because he made a statement at a meeting, followed by a wink at her. He used to wink at whoever caught his eye after making a statement made to wake people up. He winked at me more than once and I'm a man, so it had nothing to do with being sexist. She and her buddy complained when men held the door open for them, or put their hand on their back to guide them to go first and a number of other things I can no longer recall.
By the time she and her buddy got done calling everything sexist and filing complaints - NOBODY was on board anymore. Not even most of the women.
And you'll note most of the people have stopped posting and trying to sort this out because they're tired of the discussion.
What the op described was not racism and continuing to say it is won't make it so. All you're doing is losing defenders against a real problem by banging the same insignificant drum over and over again.
It was racism. We could also call it bigotry--but it was bigotry on the basis of race. Racism is not the scarlet letter. Good people can do racist things sometimes (not that the woman described by the OP is necessarily a good person).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Nograviti, you're just one more person in need of education.
Prejudice is any prejudgment or assumption about someone, either favorable or unfavorable, before having sufficient knowledge to judge with accuracy. Preconceived feelings, opinions or attitudes regarding an ethnic, racial, social or religious group. NOT ILLEGAL.
I'm pretty happy with this definition. Nograviti did not saying anything about the legality or illegality of the conduct though, so I don't know why you bring it up.
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Originally Posted by MPowering1
Stereotyping
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
is the belief that groups of people have the same characteristics or behavior. NOT ILLEGAL.
Same as above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Racism
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
is the belief that members of certain races are superior and other races are inferior. Racism is based on stereotypes and prejudice, but not all people who are prejudiced or who stereotype are racist. Racism is also behavior that is discriminatory or abusive towards members of another race based on the false belief that they are inferior. THE LATTER IS ILLEGAL.
Now it is you who are in need of an education. Racism is discrimination or bigotry on the basis of race. It is not illegal, though it is generally illegal for businesses generally cannot refuse to serve someone on the basis of race. Beliefs about racial inferiority and superiority are generally referred to as "supremacist."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Examples:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Prejudice - The assumption that your neighbor who is a lawyer is shifty and an ambulance chaser. The assumption that someone whose last name is Alvarez is fluent in Spanish. The assumption that someone who looks Asian wasn't born in America. The assumption that Muslims are not Americans.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Stereotypes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
- The notion that all Irishmen drink a lot. The belief that Calabrese are hard headed or that Sicilians are shady and low class. The belief that all black people eat fried chicken and watermelon. The thought that people who are Jewish or Italian have big noses. The notion that all Muslims are terrorists.
Yup, I'm with you here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Racism
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
- Believing that white people are superior to other races. Refusing to rent to Indians. Refusing to hire black people. Refusing to do business with Mexicans.
Believing in white supremacy is actually more of a stereotype than it is racism. Belief alone is not generally regarded as racism. I agree with your other examples though. I would add that a cab driver refusing to pick up a black man in ordinary clothing is racism. Actually, your other examples also reflect the concept of "Institutional Racism" that I described above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
Racist
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
- one who believes their racial group is superior, and people in other racial groups are inferior. A person who practices racism by discriminating against groups of people.
I would call the first person a "racial supremacist." The second person is racist, but a more precise definition is "a person who discriminates against another person on the basis of race."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
The woman described by the op showed prejudice - that does not make her racist.
She had prejudiced thoughts, then she opened her mouth and said racist things (we could also call them bigoted things, if that makes her defenders feel better). I suspect her racism is grounded in her ignorance (knowing a thing or two about the Pacific Northwest).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky
I see that we still have people joining this thread who (understandably) chose not to read through the 20+ pages of posts before replying. Allow me to fill in some of the details.
The OP is someone of Asian heritage who was born and raised in the states. She has a degree in English and speaks it with no accent and has not encountered any race-specific incidents in the state where she used to reside. She recently moved to a new state and started a new job, and on her first day had this exchange with "RB" right after they were introduced. Having lived with, and gotten used to, people (white, black, Asian, Latino, etc.) who knew how to act around people with different backgrounds she found the encounter to be jarring and griped about it in an online forum, neglecting to fill in all essential details.
Since the encounter that left a bad taste in her mouth is race-related (i.e. it would not have taken place if it were not for her race) she used the "r" word to label it, not realizing that many people have strong feelings regarding how that term should be defined in relation to other, similar words like "bigotry" or "prejudice."
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
Very informative, thanks for posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1
This is a straw man argument you're resorting to because you don't have a toenail, let alone a leg, to stand on.
Prejudice can be favorable or unfavorable. You know, like when people assume Asian people are smart and do well in school, are hard workers, rule the field in certain industries, etc. Not unfavorable but a prejudice just the same. AND NOWHERE IN MY THREAD DO I STATE WHAT IS, AND WHAT IS NOT, OKAY WITH ME.
As for your example with stereotyping, even 30 years ago when walking down the street after midnight, if I happened to approach a young woman, she would speed up. Not because she was afraid of all men who were white, and it didn't matter what race the woman was, but because she did not know what this one man entering her space was going to do. AND NOWHERE DO I STATE WHAT IS, OR WHAT IS NOT, OKAY WITH ME.
Prejudice and stereotyping are not illegal. If they were, most minorities would find themselves behind bars because of the way they feel about the police, only they would have no representation because people are also prejudiced against and stereotype lawyers. Many people here would be in court all day because of the prejudice and stereotyping they do against Managers. And the courts would be tied up with cases about stereotyping Catholics, doctors, the wealthy, blue collar workers, people who are overweight, etc.
You may be fine with not adhering to definitions, but thank God our lawmakers did see a need to define what institutes a crime, otherwise people who were victims of racial discrimination, rape, or any other crime, would have no recourse under the law.
Remember that next time you feel you're a victim, which I suspect is on a regular basis.
You are tying yourself in knots to claim that the woman described in the OP wasn't being racist and excuse her conduct or avoid the subject at hand. It's a fair assumption to make that you somehow think that "just" prejudice and "just" stereotyping are less bad, at least, given your series of responses. And this post, with its implication that "minorities" are all prejudiced, is a pretty great example of a stereotype. And quit claiming that racism is illegal. It is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life
There are 29 pages in this thread you can catch up on to answer that question.
It was a bigoted statement. It showed prejudice. It was not racist.
That article is hardly an authoritative source for defining prejudice, bigotry, and racism. Using its definitions, I would characterize the incident as bigotry. It was not a "private thought," but a series of verbal expressions directed at the OP.
I think that racism is bigotry on the basis of race, but that institutional racism is actually a separate category--the "old equation" of bigotry + power. On the basis of OP, this is not institutional racism. It is plain vanilla, or "personal racism."
It was racism. We could also call it bigotry--but it was bigotry on the basis of race. Racism is not the scarlet letter. Good people can do racist things sometimes (not that the woman described by the OP is necessarily a good person).
I'm pretty happy with this definition. Nograviti did not saying anything about the legality or illegality of the conduct though, so I don't know why you bring it up.
[b]
Same as above.
[b]
Now it is you who are in need of an education. Racism is discrimination or bigotry on the basis of race. It is not illegal, though it is generally illegal for businesses generally cannot refuse to serve someone on the basis of race. Beliefs about racial inferiority and superiority are generally referred to as "supremacist."
[b][u]
Agreed.
[b]
Yup, I'm with you here.
[b]
Believing in white supremacy is actually more of a stereotype than it is racism. Belief alone is not generally regarded as racism. I agree with your other examples though. I would add that a cab driver refusing to pick up a black man in ordinary clothing is racism. Actually, your other examples also reflect the concept of "Institutional Racism" that I described above.
[b]
I would call the first person a "racial supremacist." The second person is racist, but a more precise definition is "a person who discriminates against another person on the basis of race."
[color=Red][b]
She had prejudiced thoughts, then she opened her mouth and said racist things (we could also call them bigoted things, if that makes her defenders feel better). I suspect her racism is grounded in her ignorance (knowing a thing or two about the Pacific Northwest).
Very informative, thanks for posting.
You are tying yourself in knots to claim that the woman described in the OP wasn't being racist and excuse her conduct or avoid the subject at hand. It's a fair assumption to make that you somehow think that "just" prejudice and "just" stereotyping are less bad, at least, given your series of responses. And this post, with its implication that "minorities" are all prejudiced, is a pretty great example of a stereotype. And quit claiming that racism is illegal. It is not.
And bigotry on the basis of race is . . . racism.
I'm out. You guys are nuts thinking you can redefine words - and then you don't even know what the word "latter" means???? Well, of course, you don't - you don't use a dictionary!
I'm out. You guys are nuts thinking you can redefine words - and then you don't even know what the word "latter" means???? Well, of course, you don't - you don't use a dictionary!
I'm not sure what you are referring to. I do, however, know what latter means. I'm not surprised that you do not want to engage on substance.
From those of us who know what real racism is, as oppposed to the garden variety academic greivance politics racism currently in vogue among the priveledged classes of minority descent.
Well, that actually IS how racism really works. A person in a position of power from one ethnic background looks to keep in place or put in place another person of a different ethnic background based simply on ethnic background. Abuse of power against the powerless minority for no other reason than the person is a member of the minority... Sounds a lot like racism and how racism works to me.
This is just silly. You are ascribing to whites the ability to read the minds of minorities and know what makes them uncomfortable, and then begin conversations with their peers, based on that knowledge, for the purpose of making minorities uncomfortable. That line thinking is so convoluted that one would have to be an academic to believe it, much less think it makes sense!
Sometimes people just talk about things, and how others react or don't react has nothing to do with the conversation. Sometimes I feel ill at ease around conversations, and have to bite my tongue because of the setting. It's not insidious racism everywhere, it's the reality of being in a group of people with differing experiences, backgrounds, educations, and values. EVERYBODY is an outsider sometimes.
So, if I am near a group of blacks speaking eubonics/slang and discussing Eric Holder not prosecuting Black Panthers for voter intimidation, are they "broadcasting" to make me feel uncomfortable and create a hostile environment, or are they discussing an issue they feel is important to them as a group, and they haven't given me a single thought? My bet is they haven't given me a single thought, sort of like the example you use for "broadcasting" as racism.
People have different veiws, and see things from different perspectives, and have different values. That used to be called "diversity" not "racism." Engaging in discussions about those views, perspectives, and values is the ONLY way people can come to understand each other. That used to be called "conversation" not "racism."
The well rehearsed science of denial...all racists are very smart about how that works. I know what I'm talking about. Enough said.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. I do, however, know what latter means. I'm not surprised that you do not want to engage on substance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1 is the belief that members of certain races are superior and other races are inferior. Racism is based on stereotypes and prejudice, but not all people who are prejudiced or who stereotype are racist. Racism is also behavior that is discriminatory or abusive towards members of another race based on the false belief that they are inferior. THE LATTER IS ILLEGAL.
Quote:
Now it is you who are in need of an education. Racism is discrimination or bigotry on the basis of race. It is not illegal, though it is generally illegal for businesses generally cannot refuse to serve someone on the basis of race. Beliefs about racial inferiority and superiority are generally referred to as "supremacist."
You're telling me I need an education because racism is discrimination or bigotry on the basis of race and then go on to say it's not illegal, except when it involves businesses refusing to serve someone based on race.
I wrote that racism is defined as two things - a belief, and behavior that is abusive or discriminates against people, and that the latter is illegal - not the former, but the latter. So we are saying the same thing and you're saying I need an education. Do you know what former and latter mean?
And no, beliefs are not referred to as supremacists - supremacists describes a group of people, not beliefs.
PLEASE PEOPLE - USE A DICTIONARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm done. People who do not educate themselves and ignore the definition of words just to fit their narrative, are not worth my time and trouble.
I personally don't think this was meant as racist. I think it was meant as a conversation starter. Perhaps she was out of line in asking the question, but I don't think she was being racist.
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