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Dude why have you stayed in China? I know you have the two small businesses, but because you bought your place in GZ, do you feel you can continue to ride it out? How long do you really want to live in China? Your wife interested in living in the U.S.?
Yep, we're still here, for better or worse. To cut and paste from another post where someone asked: My wife changed her mind on a bi-daily basis, which got to be quite literally maddening. We finally agreed to leave on March 10th as a final date but then as the cases in the US and EU were clearly worsening, I decided it would be better to stay until it's over, since we would basically be walking straight into a new outbreak. My plan is still, at the end of this, to head back home. But now it's impossible to say when the proper time will be.
We do feel we can ride it out, for the time being; our business has taken a hit, but we are breaking even at one shop and turning over a (small) profit at the other, as of this month. January till March, we were at a loss. A lot of other places have closed, and we have always set fair prices for our product so we've been less impacted than other places, knock on wood.
Owning property would take some of the burden off, though we are currently living in SZ and the flat we own is unoccupied so it's just financial dead weight. The bigger concern for us overall is that most of our business in both locations comes from the expat community, which is currently unstable, and nationalism and fearmongering towards foreigners is keeping more locals away from us as well. I read a report from the GZ gov't that there are 50k fewer registered foreigners in GZ than there were in January - this doesn't account for the many "private ESL teachers," models, actors, freelancers, etc who were on L or M visas who have long been a part of expat life in China, so I'd guess at least another 30k on top of that, conservatively. I personally know dozens of people who either got stuck outside of China on vacation, or left early on and now are pretty much stuck at home or in a third country. A lot of those people are now in situations where they have to find new work (if possible), take up leases, etc. There are a lot of people abroad asking if there are any friends who can help them go pack their apartments in their absence. Doesn't bode well.
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We left early February, as it just became too much to deal with, esp with two young children. Quarantined in our apartment in GZ, and not being able to see a doctor if one of our kids got sick was our primary concern. After living in China for 20 years, I had mixed feelings about leaving.
Can't blame you. To tie this to another question of yours, it's a tricky situation, where my stint in China was basically six months that got extended another six years on top of that. I didn't come here with the intention of staying indefinitely, and though I've certainly enjoyed prosperity here and would definitely consider my time here as positive and transformative, living in China was never a major life goal of mine. It just happened this way. So, over the years, the pendulum has swung between "I could probably stay here forever," to "I'll probably eventually leave," and back many times.
When we first met, my wife told me point blank she could and would never leave China, and I accepted that, in being with her; that I would most likely stay here forever. Over the years, from exposure to foreigners, traveling abroad, and probably most importantly having a mixed child, her opinion has done a 180. She is still proud of China, still proud to be Chinese, and as she has said, "would be comfortable here forever." But, she's also seen the limitations I face as an expat here, that our daughter faces, and increasingly, that she faces by proxy or association. She is actively pushing for us to move to the US, or possibly Sweden (she's been infatuated with Scandinavia for many years; incidentally, I have lots of family there and moving there would be relatively easy).
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How is GZ now? I''ve heard lots of anti-foreigner sentiment. I read so many negative, nasty and racist comments in a couple of Wechate groups I'm in with local Chinese in GZ. It feels like overall there are lots of anti-foreigner attitudes now, esp with all of the propaganda being pumped into the media in China by Xi and his Communist buddies these past couple of years.
It's pretty bad. Not gonna lie. We have donated food to displaced Africans, a few of our regulars who are African-American have been mistreated, hell, I've had a few instances myself or with my daughter that have really pissed me off in the last couple weeks. The expat community seems largely on edge; some people are more permissive of it than others but the general sentiment I see is one of resignation and frustration. I did informal flash polls in a few Wechat groups I'm in and it seems that the majority of expats state that they plan to leave when the opportunity arises, or after contracts or leases are up. In time, I think a lot of these attitudes will cool down, but I think it's safe to say that "the good times are over," as far as expat life in China goes :/
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Stay safe bud
Thanks man, and right back at you. How are you guys taking to life back in the States now? After 20 years I imagine it's a pretty big change.
They don't have any real case against China. It is a mutation of a respiratory virus, of which there are many. Trump begged them over the weekend to admit responsibility and there would be no penalties. The opinion is manufactured in the US as much as it in China or elsewhere. It can swing in any direction, especially if there is official backing behind it since the media, intelligence services, etc. can all play a role in it. Once you weed out the Trump defenders, it becomes more neutral.
its pretty clear that the virus came from the PRC. You're smoking opium if you think otherwise.
Also, the Chinese are not the only ones that have such markets, they are common in several countries of Asia, but also in parts of Africa and even Australian aborigines have a long history of eating bats. So, why would this epidemic pop up now? Now that the hygiene at wet markets is actually much better than it used to be decades ago
Strange...
I have to admit, your posts here usually go off topic into an area of deflection and diversion into the area of irrelevance. But you brought up an interesting question - wet markets exist in many developing countries, so why China?
So I did some research and came to these conclusions, which mix geography, politics, and world economics:
China is in the midst of centralizing much of it's food production, forcing the mom & pop Chinese market owner to compete on a different level - exotic animals...yeah, bats.
Combine that with the Chinese taste for exotic food. It's traditional for both food AND medicine. There are also wildlife markets, which should not be the same as wet markets, but sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Most exotic animals are bred in cages, so not really wildlife.
Combine that with little regards to cleanliness standards or regulations...OK other 3rd world countries have this issue as well, but...
Combine this with the very crowded conditions, Wuhan has a population of 11 million. Far exceeding the density of many African more rural countries.
Combine that with China's role in the global economy - many many business people travel to China. How many travel to The Congo to negotiate multi-million trade deals or set up factories?
Combine that with geography - viruses don't like warm weather.
Mix it together, with many of the above qualities not a part of other global wet markets (i.e. Africa or an aborigine eating a bat out somewhere, and you have the perfect condition of a Pandemic.
Based on this, I think the solution is to not ban wet markets (as originally thought) but to ban the trade of exotic animals. I think China did this after SARS but then lifted the ban. That and better cleanliness regulatory standards. That's what China needs to do.
They don't have any real case against China. It is a mutation of a respiratory virus, of which there are many. Trump begged them over the weekend to admit responsibility and there would be no penalties. The opinion is manufactured in the US as much as it in China or elsewhere. It can swing in any direction, especially if there is official backing behind it since the media, intelligence services, etc. can all play a role in it. Once you weed out the Trump defenders, it becomes more neutral.
I agree that there isn't any real "case" against China re: the many brewing conspiracy theories as to where, how, and why it originated. Pretty much everything points to it originating here and being spread accidentally, and that seems to be the narrative that most of the world has settled into. There's basically zero chance that they did it purposefully - why would they do that to themselves?? - but one way or the other, early bungling of the situation didn't help anyone, though I honestly doubt that it would have been much better had it started anywhere else in the world, since no one was going to look into whether it was anything special until it was plainly obvious it was "different."
The biggest problem that China faces in global PR is that, put bluntly, most of the world already had generally low opinions of the CCP to begin with and already assume that they will lie or cover-up anything bad that happens within its borders. Most places have at some point been on the receiving end of their bombastic national propaganda, often over something that is perceived as trivial: some uninhabited rocks, a few crappy tourists being arrested, a vlogger or second/third-tier personality making a dig at them, etc.
Again, the initial goodwill posturing - donations of medical supplies, the loan of doctors who had experience in fighting the illness, etc - seems to have largely fallen flat, due to stories (however overblown or not) of defective equipment, official deflection and pushing of conspiracy theories, and occasional demands for the rest of the world to be thankful or reminding that without China, everyone would be screwed - great for a domestic audience, but kryptonite abroad. Perhaps the biggest misstep was its handling of the mistreatment of Africans in GZ: flat-out denial ("Chinese are not racist, there is no problem here, all peoples are welcome and prosperous in China") combined with implied or direct xenophobia ("foreigners in China must abide by the same rules, and many have not, unlike the united and resolute Chinese people") and blatant deflection and whataboutism ("perhaps those who are critical should look at the treatment of Africans in the USA and Europe's violent history of colonialism"), often in the same article.
And we haven't even gotten into the epic surge of wumaos and little pinks, going on the offensive on foreign media, relentlessly banging the nationalist tanggu while mercilessly tearing into anyone that could even remotely be construed as criticising of China.
So, while it's certainly true that opinion can still swing either way, realistically, at this point, considering its many years of missteps and (more or less) failure at what may be its most opportune moment, what could the CCP do to tip global public opinion back in its favor?
So, while it's certainly true that opinion can still swing either way, realistically, at this point, considering its many years of missteps and (more or less) failure at what may be its most opportune moment, what could the CCP do to tip global public opinion back in its favor?
deploy more wumaos, buy social media and mainstream media companies, and aggressively deploy Hauwei equipment.
Essentially create Oceania and big brother. You must learn to love the party.
I hope it all burns. Wipe out the food supply and the masses would put Xi and the party heads on a spike.
China didn't count people who don't show symptoms but test positive. You can multiple the number of cases by 5.
There may be problems with the accuracy of the coronavirus tests. They're seeing the same thing here.
There are integrity problems throughout the data in all countries because the virus is new and there weren't enough test kits.
I doubt much will happen with moving plants back. If they move, they have to go to a cheaper location, probably in SE Asia. That migration has been happening for a decade.
I remember the Buy USA movement for computers. Nobody bought them. They can't afford to pay $2500 for a PC that can be made overseas for $500.
They can miss the virus with the swabs if it doesn't pick up enough material. A Japanese study also found half of the people without symptoms later got sick.
They discovered an infected person at a type of asylum home here in Portugal. So they tested all almost 200 people at that home and found that 2/3 of them are infected, none of them showed symptoms, though. Probably because they are all rather young.
I have to admit, your posts here usually go off topic into an area of deflection and diversion into the area of irrelevance. But you brought up an interesting question - wet markets exist in many developing countries, so why China?
So I did some research and came to these conclusions, which mix geography, politics, and world economics:
China is in the midst of centralizing much of it's food production, forcing the mom & pop Chinese market owner to compete on a different level - exotic animals...yeah, bats.
Combine that with the Chinese taste for exotic food. It's traditional for both food AND medicine. There are also wildlife markets, which should not be the same as wet markets, but sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Most exotic animals are bred in cages, so not really wildlife.
Combine that with little regards to cleanliness standards or regulations...OK other 3rd world countries have this issue as well, but...
Combine this with the very crowded conditions, Wuhan has a population of 11 million. Far exceeding the density of many African more rural countries.
Combine that with China's role in the global economy - many many business people travel to China. How many travel to The Congo to negotiate multi-million trade deals or set up factories?
Combine that with geography - viruses don't like warm weather.
Mix it together, with many of the above qualities not a part of other global wet markets (i.e. Africa or an aborigine eating a bat out somewhere, and you have the perfect condition of a Pandemic.
Based on this, I think the solution is to not ban wet markets (as originally thought) but to ban the trade of exotic animals. I think China did this after SARS but then lifted the ban. That and better cleanliness regulatory standards. That's what China needs to do.
Why compare a huge Chinese city with more rural Africa? African wet markets are also to be found in cities.
Also, we already know that the virus did not originate at the wet market in Wuhan.
Why compare a huge Chinese city with more rural Africa? African wet markets are also to be found in cities.
Also, we already know that the virus did not originate at the wet market in Wuhan.
But yes, better hygiene can never hurt.
Because Africa contained Ebola! The PRC could not contain PLA bioweapon COVID-19
PRC which is supposed to be a superpower and it created a PLA bioweapon that infected the world. They should have be able to contain with their 24/7 police state.
Because Africa contained Ebola! The PRC could not contain PLA bioweapon COVID-19
PRC which is supposed to be a superpower and it created a PLA bioweapon that infected the world. They should have be able to contain with their 24/7 police state.
No one wants to bleed from orifice of their body!
Actually, I heard just a few days ago that Ebola has resurfaced in Africa.
Africa has one advantage: its population is young, often below 20 years on average. Here in Europe it is above 40 years. That makes a big difference.
The majority of scientists don't agree with you when you say coronavirus is a bioweapon. There are scientific reasons that speak against that theory.
What I find embarrassing is that some of the equipment sent by China is said to have been defect. As if the virus as such were not bad enough already.
Since the first case was discovered in Wuhan early December last year, the virus has been contagious but until January 20, China had been insisting that the virus would not transmit between human being. Only on January 20 that it suddenly changed tone and said that the virus is highly contagious. On January 23 it put Wuhan into lockdown.
And throughout this period, WHO had been echoing China's tone. For consecutive 10 days in January, Wuhan reported only 41 cases. WHO never doubted it.
The problem is two weeks before January 23, millions of Wuhan residents had already left the City. They didn't only travel domestically; a lot of them had gone on overseas trip. In 19 countries, the first reported confirmed Coronavirus case is Chinese national. For example, the first reported case in Italy is Chinese couple in their 60s who traveled from Wuhan.
Last edited by Ian_Lee; 04-20-2020 at 02:55 PM..
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