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There are two kinds of instict - inherited or evolved instinct and learned or educated instinct.
This is a good point, blinking is inherited, but a boxer learns to fight instinctively.
Some animals know how to run as soon as they are born, we need to learn.
In one of my school projects, I was modelling evolution of very simple animals, and those in the prey group that survived eventually evolved to form groups. This new behavior was a product of their 'genes', so it was an evolved instinct, not a conscious, learned one.
Why wouldn't it be conscious?
Why can't the fish be following inbuilt rules consciously?
What are the inbuilt rules anyway if not consciousness?
My dog is certainly conscious. He knows the words for walk, dinner, toy, leash, treat, bed, pee, squirrel, bird, ball and the names of all our family members and several other people. I know when he is happy. I know when he is trying to work out my signals. He can follow instructions and go and find a particular object.
If my dog is engaging in conscious processes, why not the fish?
It's clear to me that the fish is conscious. I don't know why it wouldn't be.
Anyway that just seems like a deflection from answering the question, how does it know how to build that?
I'm not asking anyone to answer the question because obviously we don't really know the answer.
Think about the difference between conscious and instinctive. Your dog knows the word for walk, but when it walks, it does not consciously walk, it does so instinctively, without thinking about it.
I know I can walk down stairs, but I do not think how to do this. I tried it once, thinking how to move my legs and where to put my feet, it was a strange experience to observe I can walk down stairs better when I do not have to think how to do this.
The fish may just follow certain inbuilt rules to create the pattern, that does not mean the fish is conscious that it is making the pattern (even if the fish has some degree of consciousness).
I have built models with complex behaviors using simple rules, one of the first I learnt at university was ants finding food, so it is easier for me to see how something that looks complex can be done using simple rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
What are the inbuilt rules anyway if not consciousness?
Perhaps Mystic can explain in English the triune brain model better, but basically your brain functions on three levels, controlling, subconscious and conscious. Control would be regulating your heart beat, subconscious is taking in some input and responding using basic rules of thumb without being aware (we do a lot of this), and consciousness is being aware and how we model the world in our heads.
I do not think the triune model is accurate, it is more complex than that, but it gives a basic idea of how our brain works.
This is a good point, blinking is inherited, but a boxer learns to fight instinctively.
Some animals know how to run as soon as they are born, we need to learn.
In one of my school projects, I was modelling evolution of very simple animals, and those in the prey group that survived eventually evolved to form groups. This new behavior was a product of their 'genes', so it was an evolved instinct, not a conscious, learned one.
Absolutely. Blinking is instinctive, learning to dogfight in an aircraft is learned but has to become instinctive. or you lose if you have to think about it.
Think about the difference between conscious and instinctive. Your dog knows the word for walk, but when it walks, it does not consciously walk, it does so instinctively, without thinking about it.
I know I can walk down stairs, but I do not think how to do this. I tried it once, thinking how to move my legs and where to put my feet, it was a strange experience to observe I can walk down stairs better when I do not have to think how to do this.
The fish may just follow certain inbuilt rules to create the pattern, that does not mean the fish is conscious that it is making the pattern (even if the fish has some degree of consciousness).
I have built models with complex behaviors using simple rules, one of the first I learnt at university was ants finding food, so it is easier for me to see how something that looks complex can be done using simple rules.
Perhaps Mystic can explain in English the triune brain model better, but basically your brain functions on three levels, controlling, subconscious and conscious. Control would be regulating your heart beat, subconscious is taking in some input and responding using basic rules of thumb without being aware (we do a lot of this), and consciousness is being aware and how we model the world in our heads.
I do not think the triune model is accurate, it is more complex than that, but it gives a basic idea of how our brain works.
Okay. But as you are aware, the triune brain concept has largely been replaced by the whole-brain oscillatory model which is compatible with my Resonance Theory of Consciousness. That doesn't alter the fact that there are three functionally distinct components that can be identified. What I call the "reptilian brain" is comprised of TWO of the three "brains" and represents the entire complex of subsystems - the Limbic system and brain stem and the Cerebellum.
The Limbic system is the "head" of the serpent in my photo of the ape-man and is responsible for all our indiscriminate emotions and drives while the rest of the serpent is the brain stem connecting the brain to the entire body. The second "brain" is the Cerebellum. It is what enables us to walk without thought, or birds to fly, or fish to swim which is why it is often referred to as the tree of life (arborvitae). The third and most important "brain" is the Cerebrum which provides consciousness and the higher functions identified with our humanity.
The whole-brain oscillatory model recognizes that the brain operates as a unified whole despite these different components. The Resonance Theory of Consciousness explains how this is accomplished by creating consciousness as a function of resonant neutral firing in the cerebrum (the "flames" of consciousness) that reconciles the indiscriminate and subconscious autonomic inputs with conscious responses.
Think about the difference between conscious and instinctive. Your dog knows the word for walk, but when it walks, it does not consciously walk, it does so instinctively, without thinking about it.
I know I can walk down stairs, but I do not think how to do this. I tried it once, thinking how to move my legs and where to put my feet, it was a strange experience to observe I can walk down stairs better when I do not have to think how to do this.
The fish may just follow certain inbuilt rules to create the pattern, that does not mean the fish is conscious that it is making the pattern (even if the fish has some degree of consciousness).
I have built models with complex behaviors using simple rules, one of the first I learnt at university was ants finding food, so it is easier for me to see how something that looks complex can be done using simple rules.
Perhaps Mystic can explain in English the triune brain model better, but basically your brain functions on three levels, controlling, subconscious and conscious. Control would be regulating your heart beat, subconscious is taking in some input and responding using basic rules of thumb without being aware (we do a lot of this), and consciousness is being aware and how we model the world in our heads.
I do not think the triune model is accurate, it is more complex than that, but it gives a basic idea of how our brain works.
On top of this dogs understand some sense of time or even sentences. If my one dog wanted to go for a walk and I'd tell her soon, she'd leave me alone for up to an hour without bothering me. I'd I'd tell her after luch she leave me alone until I was taking the very last bite of my lunch and then there was no stopping her from being very excited and impatient. I should have used the phrase after mom has finished lunch as that would have given my wife time to finish eating.
I don't know how animals with less development of their brain think. We d9 know that crows and ravens can work out complex problems with more than trial and error, from behavioural studies in the States and Germany.
We just don't know enough about the minds of animals but we know a lot more than we used to.
Think about the difference between conscious and instinctive. Your dog knows the word for walk, but when it walks, it does not consciously walk, it does so instinctively, without thinking about it.
I know I can walk down stairs, but I do not think how to do this. I tried it once, thinking how to move my legs and where to put my feet, it was a strange experience to observe I can walk down stairs better when I do not have to think how to do this.
The fish may just follow certain inbuilt rules to create the pattern, that does not mean the fish is conscious that it is making the pattern (even if the fish has some degree of consciousness).
I have built models with complex behaviors using simple rules, one of the first I learnt at university was ants finding food, so it is easier for me to see how something that looks complex can be done using simple rules.
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I don't agree.
There's no reason to draw a difference between instinctive and conscious. One does not rule out the other. They work together.
Every time you stand up, sit down, walk across a room, get out of bed, you have made a decision to do that. You may not always be spelling out as a complete sentence "I think I will go over there" but you have made that decision in your head nonetheless.
I cannot imagine the puffer fish is merrily carving out a structure with absolutely no decision making process whatsoever. It's not like it's just swimming down stream. It's having to make a particular set of moves in order. You can see towards the end of the video it tidying up and straightening some of the lines. That's not a thoughtless process.
Even if it is, it still doesn't change that it knows what it is doing.
Maybe not in the same way you or I would.
I've always speculated how much of our conscious thought is related to language.
A fish doesn't have language. That doesn't mean it's not thinking.
I don't agree.
There's no reason to draw a difference between instinctive and conscious. One does not rule out the other. They work together.
Every time you stand up, sit down, walk across a room, get out of bed, you have made a decision to do that. You may not always be spelling out as a complete sentence "I think I will go over there" but you have made that decision in your head nonetheless.
I cannot imagine the puffer fish is merrily carving out a structure with absolutely no decision making process whatsoever. It's not like it's just swimming down stream. It's having to make a particular set of moves in order. You can see towards the end of the video it tidying up and straightening some of the lines. That's not a thoughtless process.
Even if it is, it still doesn't change that it knows what it is doing.
Maybe not in the same way you or I would.
I've always speculated how much of our conscious thought is related to language.
A fish doesn't have language. That doesn't mean it's not thinking.
Do all the individual living cells and biota that comprise your body have to think to do what they do as part of the complex conscious being that you are?
I have often wondered just how much thinking a dog, elephant, horse, dolphin or chimp can do. But with a puffer -fish, spider or Bower bird, I am inclined to suppose it is all instinct and it doesn't think at all.
Do all the individual living cells and biota that comprise your body have to think to do what they do as part of the complex conscious being that you are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I have often wondered just how much thinking a dog, elephant, horse, dolphin or chimp can do. But with a puffer -fish, spider or Bower bird, I am inclined to suppose it is all instinct and it doesn't think at all.
A good question to ask is, at what point does an organism become conscious?;
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Chimps certainly are conscious. As we know, they can be trained in a rudimentary language, as can dogs and dolphins.
I'm absolutely certain that these and other animals such as cats are conscious.
So then how far back down the chain do you go before you decide an organism is only reacting to stimuli?
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