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The reason why I don't want one is I don't want to worry about range I don't have to with gasoline powered car there's gas stations everywhere and it takes a few minutes to fill up.
its definitely not for everyone. my dad was asking me about the tesla and i said that i dont think it would be right for him because he would forget to charge it sometimes im sure. for me, i pretty much need to charge it every night or i either wont make it the next day or id have to take a lot of measures to reduce battery consumption the next day.
but i just remembered that my dad usually has 2 or 3 cars so it actually wouldnt be a problem for him. but for me, i only have 1 car for myself and 1 for the wife. if i didnt trust myself to remember to plug the car in every night, i wouldnt get the car.
You are correct. The EV uses less battery power during city driving, and also in bumper to bumper traffic when compared to an ICE vehicle. But the EV's battery is still being drained of power, which in turn reduces driving distances. The ICE vehicle in turn is being drained of fuel. Your Tesla is rated that way for ideal conditions (cold winter and very hot summer conditions aren't included), and so every other automobile on the road. These are the EPA ratings I mentioned in previous posts. My Corolla uses more fuel during the winter than it does during the summer, and less fuel on a flat road than driving up a hill. Your Tesla uses more battery power on the same conditions (up hills, towing, overloading the vehicle high speed driving in excess of 75MPH, under-inflated tires, high use of AC or heat, rapid acceleration to then sharp stops at the traffic light, extremely sharp turns at the corners, braking during a street turn, and so on). The same applies to ICE vehicles.
I also agree with you that one shouldn't shy away from buying an EV because of traffic jambs and such. However, every buyer has his or her own reasons for taking the plunge or not, and there is not reason for not taking into consideration the things we have mentioned in this thread. It has nothing to do with dissuading or persuading anybody to buy one vehicle or the other.
Traffic jams are a reason to buy EVs over ICE vehicles, even in cold weather unless it's the depths of winter in Fairbanks kind of cold weather. Stop and go traffic means lower speeds and a lot of regenerative braking which is something that a traditional ICE vehicle cannot take advantage of. As your earlier link states, the large drops from the AAA study they're referencing is for 100 mile range vehicles which are pretty rare in terms of new EVs, and pre-conditioning the battery and getting temps up in the cabin while plugged in means there's pretty much no substantial loss. An EV already in use and sitting in traffic likely already has its battery and cabin warmed up, so the loss from idling isn't going to be anywhere near the loss you get in a traditional ICE vehicle that expends energy while idling as well as from constant braking where the kinetic energy is just dissipated as friction heat in the brakes.
I have heard people don't like regenerative breaking and turn it off. I often coast up to a red light or downhill.
There are usually paddle shifters or some other such where you can change the amount of regenerative braking you have--there are EVs that offer modes where regenerative braking only happens in the course of normal braking so it essentially acts the same (the feel and the way you drive is the same, but you still get energy recovery) and there are even vehicles with modes that build in creeping when you don't have your feet on the brake or the accelerator. I prefer a pretty hefty amount of regenerative braking so that I can do one pedal driving which is especially nice in stop-and-go traffic which isn't uncommon in NYC.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 04-20-2021 at 10:13 AM..
As OyCrumbler noted, an ICE vehicle needs to run the engine and burn fuel, even when the vehicle is stopped in traffic or at a light. An EV doesn't run the electric motor when it's standing still, so the only energy usage is to run accessories that are turned on, which is far more economical... and then there's the regenerative braking, which has little impact in highway driving, but is a significant contributor in stop and go traffic or in-town/local driving.
I am glad you referenced the Car and Driver article. This part stood out to me as a completely meaningless statistic “For example, a 15-gallon gas tank holds the equivalent of 505.5 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy. That's more than six times what our Model 3 carries fully charged.”
Why, you might ask? The answer is that all that matters is how efficiently the car can turn that stored power into actual power. If stored power meant anything, then that car should have 6 times the range of a Model 3. Let’s say a Model 3 averages around 250 miles a charge instead of the stated 310. Do you know many ICE vehicles that can turn that stored energy into 1,500 miles of range? I didn’t think so.
The fact is that ICE vehicles can only turn about 15-20% of stored power into usable power. EVs are 80+% efficient.
So I will ask again, why on earth do we care how much stored energy a gas tank holds versus a battery if we are not trying to show how inefficient an ICE is in comparison.
But you missed the most important part of the article, "the mile range reduction when using the AC or heaters."
Now the "meaningless stuff" you referred to relates to fuel density. It may not be important to most people, but it is to the aviation industry.
As OyCrumbler noted, an ICE vehicle needs to run the engine and burn fuel, even when the vehicle is stopped in traffic or at a light. An EV doesn't run the electric motor when it's standing still, so the only energy usage is to run accessories that are turned on, which is far more economical... and then there's the regenerative braking, which has little impact in highway driving, but is a significant contributor in stop and go traffic or in-town/local driving.
Probably all of us know that and electricity is more efficient than fuel. As such, and EV is more efficient than an ICE vehicle of equal size. But even stopped at the traffic light, all the electrical systems of the EV (ECU, brake system and computers, wiper motor, headlights, radio, seat heaters, cab heater/AC, navigational display/computer, and so on) draw power from the battery, and this in turn slowly reduces the driving range.
The same happens to an ICE vehicle, not to its battery, but to the fuel in the tank. In this case it burns more fuel, which in turn slowly reduces the driving range. However, there is a difference that should be noted, and this is as follows: while the motor at idle is burning fuel, electrical devices (ECU, wiper motor, brakes/ABS/TPM, traction/stability computer, lights, radio, heated seats, cab heater/ AC, and so on) are being powered by the alternator. It means that I can let the vehicle idle with the headlights and every component in the car for a long time.
For example, several years ago in the middle of the winter, I parked my 8-cylinder Chevy work van on the back parking lot behind my shop. I left the motor running, headlights on, and the heater at full blast, and went to my shop. For some reason I got distracted and forgot then van; I went home The following day I receive a phone call from one of my coworkers who was on "weekend duty," who asks me, "Ray, do you want me to turn your work van off, or do you want me to keep it running for you?"
24 hours later was still fuel left in the tank, and I am certain that the cab was nice and hot.
Probably all of us know that and electricity is more efficient than fuel. As such, and EV is more efficient than an ICE vehicle of equal size. But even stopped at the traffic light, all the electrical systems of the EV (ECU, brake system and computers, wiper motor, headlights, radio, seat heaters, cab heater/AC, navigational display/computer, and so on) draw power from the battery, and this in turn slowly reduces the driving range.
The same happens to an ICE vehicle, not to its battery, but to the fuel in the tank. In this case it burns more fuel, which in turn slowly reduces the driving range. However, there is a difference that should be noted, and this is as follows: while the motor at idle is burning fuel, electrical devices (ECU, wiper motor, brakes/ABS/TPM, traction/stability computer, lights, radio, heated seats, cab heater/ AC, and so on) are being powered by the alternator. It means that I can let the vehicle idle with the headlights and every component in the car for a long time.
For example, several years ago in the middle of the winter, I parked my 8-cylinder Chevy work van on the back parking lot behind my shop. I left the motor running, headlights on, and the heater at full blast, and went to my shop. For some reason I got distracted and forgot then van; I went home The following day I receive a phone call from one of my coworkers who was on "weekend duty," who asks me, "Ray, do you want me to turn your work van off, or do you want me to keep it running for you?"
24 hours later was still fuel left in the tank, and I am certain that the cab was nice and hot.
I don't think there is anyone who said that these subsystems don't draw power. However, the power drawn isn't very much in respect to range or total capacity. Saying traffic jams are a sore spot for EVs doesn't make much sense because the ambient draw for modern EVs with sizable battery packs is pretty minimal for these vehicles when you're in traffic and in many ways is substantially worse for an ICE vehicle. You specifically mentioned traffic jams in cold weather in the NYC metropolitan area--I have some experience with this as do others on this forum, and this is simply not a significant issue or source of power depletion for EVs in the area. Even on record cold days over the last 100 years it wouldn't be an issue as the power draw for maintaining a comfortable temperature while sitting in traffic isn't significant. NYC's metropolitan area is probably within the top ten among US metropolitan areas for EV adoption, so there's plenty of us who have actually had this experience in real life. Moreover, the significance of what power draw there is is decreasing as battery improvements drive the cost per kWh of capacity down making it more affordable to stuff larger capacity battery packs into EVs and meanwhile things like heat pumps are becoming more ubiquitous for EVs.
I do think a 24 hour idle mode with the heat on is interesting. People do go camping with their Teslas and there's a camping mode (and a dog mode if someone leaves their vehicle with their pets inside and the a/c on). I'd be curious to know what the records for that are now that all four Tesla models have heat pumps. Supposedly prior to that roll-out, camp mode in the long range models with freezing temperatures with the HVAC on consumed about 15% of the battery power in 8 hours, so you'd think that 24 hours should be doable if starting with a relatively full pack. You can also do that without breathing in fumes which is a bit of a bonus. I suppose this wouldn't work as well in Fairbanks, Alaska in the deepest depths of winter, but then again, don't you guys also have engine block heater plugs in a lot of places? Can't that with fairly little effort be used for keeping EV cabins warm and the battery pre-conditioned while parked (or "camping" in that parking space)? I know that some Scandinavian countries have been gung-ho about making engine block heater infrastructure for plug-ins, so I imagine there's some way to do the same in cold climates of the US.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 04-20-2021 at 01:20 PM..
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The following day I receive a phone call from one of my coworkers who was on "weekend duty," who asks me, "Ray, do you want me to turn your work van off, or do you want me to keep it running for you?" 