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Infrastructure has not kept up with the influx of new housing and new people moving here. (Same as the roads... but I won't open that can of worms)
There is no way that our grid can support a huge shift to EVs because we can't keep the lights on when it gets cold outside... and this is prior to all of the new apartments, houses, etc... being added to the grid. I would guess that there are many other cities going through similar issues as we are.
I'm not saying that EVs don't have a place and that we should never consider alternative fuel sources. What I am saying is that it's too soon. Heck, Elon even said we're not ready to go straight EV. All of these manufacturers are just trying to get in on the money from everyone who is on the EV bus right now. If demand for EVs dipped and demand for ICE vehicles increased we would see a shift in what they were building.
Dodge has a rather large cult following since the introduction of the SRT line of vehicles. Heck... my last 3 trucks have been Rams because I couldn't find a better option in any other brand. They will absolutely kill their market if they switch to EV. It's bad enough that they're dumping their V8 line for a turbo V6....
We tried a Ford Expedition with the Ecoboost and it was not a game changer. Fuel mileage sucked (18 mpg on the highway) and the 10 speed transmission (all in the name of fuel economy) was garbage. We have a V8 Nissan Armada that's getting 18.4 mpg in the city and close to 20 mpg on the highway. My Ram with the 5.7 Hemi gets 18mpg city and almost 22 mpg highway. That's respectable for vehicles of this size.
Exactly. Which proves we've sucked as much efficiency out of ICEs as is possible...hence the whole point of electric.
Two words: NUCLEAR POWER.
Renewables are fine and have a place, and I'm in favor of continuing that route, but nuclear is still the best bang for the buck, so long as we can remove some of the regulatory hurdles and go to next-gen nuclear plants.
I think CA is 2nd largest if you are considering all uses of electricity including commercial, industry and transportation. But just looking at residential, CA is 3rd (behind TX and FL). TX, FL, and CA use 25% of the residential electricity in the nation.
I did the calcuation per account, not per person. However, I disagree that per account or per person is a lousy way to look at it. CA has far more accounts than TX or FL, yet they use less overall residential electricity. However, they pay more money for less electricity than either TX or FL as the rate is nearly double. Data is for 2021 from the EIA.
155,075,136 MWh TX $18,772,300,000 11,815,251 accounts 12.11 cents per kWh
130,412,464 MWh FL $15,518,174,000 9,917,113 accounts 11.90 cents per kWh
90,284,143 MWh CA $20,604,392,000 13,883,994 accounts 22.82 cents per kWh
--
1,470,486,882 Mwh US $200,833,874,000 138,308,772 accounts 13.66 cents per kWh
Despite having the lowest consumption per account, California still is the greatest importer of electricity of any state in the nation. I realize it is a free market and states are not little kingdoms, but politicians are going to make sure that a state does not have rolling blackouts because too much electricity was exported to California. We've seen this for half a century when the Pacific DC Intertie was first built. The governors of Washington and Oregon passed laws to make sure that the needs of the home states were met before exporting electricity to SOCAL.
Offshore Wind is a largely untapped source of electricity for California. Unlimited budgets can do almost anything. California is going to find itself with more expensive electricity than Hawaii.
Personally, I don't think there is any solution except government control over home circuits including the power to tap the battery in your EV.
but paco in your own post you proved my point. Cali has the greatest shortfall. and I dont consider use of power - power is power - you either need it or you do not need it. as we both pointed out, cali as a whole does not have the extreme heating - or cooling - needs of many other places, but it has the most people, ergo its gonna have the most fillin stations (gas or electric), in and out burgers, bed bath beyonds etc etc. no to mention the state is pretty much silicon valley which runs on electric...
if I didnt have to run AC here (and technically I do not) and didnt griswold the place each christmas, my power bill would hover in the <300KWH a month range DRASTICALLY.
They are not building plants or stringing wires based on customer accounts. they are looking at the load region by region and ONLY looking at the load.
Exactly. Which proves we've sucked as much efficiency out of ICEs as is possible...hence the whole point of electric.
Two words: NUCLEAR POWER.
Renewables are fine and have a place, and I'm in favor of continuing that route, but nuclear is still the best bang for the buck, so long as we can remove some of the regulatory hurdles and go to next-gen nuclear plants.
Nuclear power, hydro dams, wind turbines, photovoltaic, concentrated solar power, geothermal, and others all have their right places. Depending on the location and situation, some will have better bang for the buck than the others, and currently, it's infrequently nuclear power that's the best bang for the buck, but nuclear power certainly has the most potential for such. Regardless of which one is used though, they all have tried and true pathways for conversion to electricity and much more inefficient pathways towards creating a fuel that can be piped into your standard internal combustion engine.
Hell, even among most fossil fuels, the conversion pathway to electricity is more energetically and economically efficient than to a liquid fuel source that your standard gasoline engine or diesel engine can use (and you can only choose one as you certainly should not put a fuel intended for a gasoline engine in a diesel one or vice versa). What's even nuttier is that electric vehicles are so efficient and the mobile internal combustion engines that vehicles use are so *inefficient* that it's oftentimes more efficient well to wheel to convert petroleum into electricity and then transmit that to an EV rather than to take the petroleum, refine it, distribute it to multiple points, and then to the mobile internal combustion engine. That's how ridiculous this is--the most efficient energy pathway for mobile internal combustion engines is at best about equivalent but in some situations worse than electric vehicles, and for all other energy sources, the comparison ranges from awful to absurd.
Yes, the US should absolutely work on improving and hardening its grid, but that's something it should do regardless of how EV adoption works. It is not impossible. The US grid among those of developed countries *does* have more failures than average, and it *is* fixable and should be fixed. There's also widely varying performance among fairly closely located electrical providers, so there is obviously not truly a technical or engineering problem.
Anyhow, for the topic at hand, it's silly because it mixes the fortunes of Dodge vs Toyota with that of electric powertrains and non-electric powertrains. Dodge the brand is more likely to go away as it's just one of a stable of badges that the Stellantis octopus has and previous holders of the Dodge badge have been happy to eliminate badges before. This is even more the case now that RAM was pulled out to be its own entity and Dodge's global presence is quite small and their offerings elsewhere consist mostly of rebadging of smaller vehicles from other brands (many of them now part of the same Stellantis company). Toyota on the other hand isn't just the name of a badge, but the name of the entire parent company and has a massive global presence with the Toyota badge itself being the primary and largest badge within the larger company. It's also ridiculous to think of Dodge as emblematic of electric vehicles, because it is nowhere close to being the leading electric vehicle seller (there is not even a single Dodge fully electric vehicle out right now, so the idea they are emblematic of EVs is ridiculous) or leading in anything except for a small segment of people in North America desperately trying to relive their youth with retro styling in what is otherwise subpar vehicles. Meanwhile, Toyota, while not the leader in electric vehicles, does actually offer plugin hybrids and full battery electric vehicles (unlike Dodge) and has in recent years rapidly shifted much more in resources towards electric vehicles. This poll honestly seems to stem from being fairly misinformed on the matter.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-03-2023 at 08:11 AM..
California has the most people, ergo its gonna have the most fillin stations (gas or electric), in and out burgers, bed bath beyonds etc etc. no to mention the state is pretty much silicon valley which runs on electric...
I wasn't aware that we were disagreeing, except possibly over the value of per account data.
For instance, compare CA and PA.
CA is the largest importer of electricity from out of state, while PA is the largest exporter of electricity.
It is basically impossible to build a plant in California that does not qualify as renewable energy since it will be illegal to operate after 2045.
Pennsylvania is building natural gas plants like crazy to feed the export marke to NY, NJ, DE, and MD.
PA has one of the highest percentage of nuclear generated electricity, while CA is still planning to decomission it's last nuclear plant and it will be illegal to import electricity generated from nuclear after 205.
The per account data tells me that Pennsylvanians are paying the same amount of money and getting 57% more power than Californians.
CA consumes 542 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $124 average monthly residential bill in 2021
PA consumes 851 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $117 average monthly residential bill in 2021
But given all the data above, who is more likely to be able to add an EV that requires 400 kWh per month to their residence? A Pennsylvanian or a Californian?
Number of EVs registered at the end of 2021
563,070 EVs California with 13.88 million residential electric accounts. CA added 11,481 EVs every month in 2021
26,770 EVs Pennsylvania with 5.48 million residential electric accounts. PA added 770 EVS every month in 2021
Pennsylvanians are not particularly hostile to EVs, but they generally are ambivalent.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 02-03-2023 at 06:12 PM..
I wasn't aware that we were disagreeing, except possibly over the value of per account data.
For instance, compare CA and PA.
CA is the largest importer of electricity from out of state, while PA is the largest exporter of electricity.
It is basically impossible to build a plant in California that does not qualify as renewable energy since it will be illegal to operate after 2045.
Pennsylvania is building natural gas plants like crazy to feed the export marke to NY, NJ, DE, and MD.
PA has one of the highest percentage of nuclear generated electricity, while CA is still planning to decomission it's last nuclear plant and it will be illegal to import electricity generated from nuclear after 205.
The per account data tells me that Pennsylvanians are paying the same amount of money and getting 57% more power than Californians.
CA consumes 542 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $124 average monthly residential bill in 2021
PA consumes 851 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $117 average monthly residential bill in 2021
But given all the data above, who is more likely to be able to add an EV that requires 400 kWh per month to their residence? A Pennsylvanian or a Californian?
Number of EVs registered at the end of 2021
563,070 EVs California with 13.88 million residential electric accounts. CA added 11,481 EVs every month in 2021
26,770 EVs Pennsylvania with 5.48 million residential electric accounts. PA added 770 EVS every month in 2021
Pennsylvanians are not particularly hostile to EVs, but they generally are ambivalent.
not disagreeing on the points like 'you are totally wrong, you must follow trump!" stuff, I just disagree with the metric. I think you and I have echoed important data points without consulting each other so the message it on target.
and as for the bolded above....I think the ambivalence comes from the lack of dealers and perceived lack of infrastructure. this isnt a 'car' state, and isnt a small car state, and when you get out of robinson twp or philly, where do you fuel the damn things? I have no reason to have an ap to tell me where the nearest plug is, so neither would anyone else, they see many of one thing, and zero of another so interest is never piqued.
I wasn't aware that we were disagreeing, except possibly over the value of per account data.
For instance, compare CA and PA.
CA is the largest importer of electricity from out of state, while PA is the largest exporter of electricity.
It is basically impossible to build a plant in California that does not qualify as renewable energy since it will be illegal to operate after 2045.
Pennsylvania is building natural gas plants like crazy to feed the export marke to NY, NJ, DE, and MD.
PA has one of the highest percentage of nuclear generated electricity, while CA is still planning to decomission it's last nuclear plant and it will be illegal to import electricity generated from nuclear after 205.
The per account data tells me that Pennsylvanians are paying the same amount of money and getting 57% more power than Californians.
CA consumes 542 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $124 average monthly residential bill in 2021
PA consumes 851 kWh per month 2021 for residential, $117 average monthly residential bill in 2021
But given all the data above, who is more likely to be able to add an EV that requires 400 kWh per month to their residence? A Pennsylvanian or a Californian?
Number of EVs registered at the end of 2021
563,070 EVs California with 13.88 million residential electric accounts. CA added 11,481 EVs every month in 2021
26,770 EVs Pennsylvania with 5.48 million residential electric accounts. PA added 770 EVS every month in 2021
Pennsylvanians are not particularly hostile to EVs, but they generally are ambivalent.
not disagreeing on the points like 'you are totally wrong, you must follow trump!" stuff, I just disagree with the metric. I think you and I have echoed important data points without consulting each other so the message it on target.
and as for the bolded above....I think the ambivalence comes from the lack of dealers and perceived lack of infrastructure. this isnt a 'car' state, and isnt a small car state, and when you get out of robinson twp or philly, where do you fuel the damn things? I have no reason to have an ap to tell me where the nearest plug is, so neither would anyone else, they see many of one thing, and zero of another so interest is never piqued.
I think you and I have echoed important data points without consulting each other so the message it on target.
The message is California is playing with brinkmanship even without EVs.
Outside of Pennsylvania another interesting state is Alabama. Big export electricity business to Georgia. Massive surplus of electricity from hydro power and nuclear power. Many international auto-makers are locating to Albama because of relatively low wages and stable price of electricity. Consumption is high because of air conditioning.
$4.1 billion 31.6 million mWh 2.3 million residential accounts 12.96 cents per kWh average in 2021
1,140 kWh per month per residential account for 2021. $148 average monthly residential bill in 2021
Fewer than 5000 EVs registered at the end of 2021 in Alabama.
2021 statistics
484 population per EV - Pennsylvania 26,770 EVs per population of 12,964,056
1061 population per EV - Alabama 4,750 EVs per population of 5,039,877
Maybe if Alabamians showed some interest in EVs they could attract the Charger and Challenger EV assembly from Belvidere Illinois to Alabama.
Quote:
https://www.madeinalabama.com/indust...ry/automotive/
When Mercedes-Benz announced plans to open its only U.S. assembly plant in Alabama in 1993, an industry was launched. Since then, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota, as well as an expanding network of automotive suppliers, have joined Alabama’s vehicle manufacturing industry. A new dimension was added to this industry when Autocar, a maker of heavy-duty work trucks, launched production in the state.
In a generation, accelerating growth in this critical sector of Alabama’s economy has turned the state into an important production hub for the industry.
Together, assembly plants operated by Mercedes, Honda and Hyundai have propelled Alabama to a Top 5 ranking among the states for the production of cars and light trucks. These Alabama automakers have a combined capacity topping 1 million cars and light trucks each year, rising to 1.3 million vehicles once the new Mazda Toyota Manufacturing assembly plant reaches full production.
Toyota, Honda and Hyundai also produce over 1.5 million engines annually, another sign of the sector’s strength in the state. Capacity upgrades will soon take that figure close to 2 million engines per year.
We are all well aware of the scarcity of "electricity pumps" along our nation's highways, and how long it takes to recharge the batteries. We're also well aware of what storms do to power lines , and how many days/weeks it takes to restore that power.
No thanks.
Ya wanna go electric? Go ahead.
As for the rest of us... we'll stick with gasoline.
Charging time? Yes, about 15 minutes for 200 miles worth. So? I go more than 200 miles in a shot once or twice a year. And the rest of the year, I don't have to bother going to the gas station and waiting while the gas pumps. It more than evens out.
Storms? Pfft. Look, if power is out for weeks then the gasoline pumps aren't going to be working. Or... do you not even know that the way gasoline gets from that underground tank up to your vehicle is by... an electrical-powered pump?
You are really coming up with some pretty silly objections to electric vehicles. As such, it is clear that you're really objection is that it just bothers you. You don't like it... because. Then you go scrounging around for some reason, any reason, to oppose it. But that's not how logic works. Action must follow the facts, not vice versa.
Charging time? Yes, about 15 minutes for 200 miles worth. So? I go more than 200 miles in a shot once or twice a year. And the rest of the year, I don't have to bother going to the gas station and waiting while the gas pumps. It more than evens out.
Storms? Pfft. Look, if power is out for weeks then the gasoline pumps aren't going to be working. Or... do you not even know that the way gasoline gets from that underground tank up to your vehicle is by... an electrical-powered pump?
You are really coming up with some pretty silly objections to electric vehicles. As such, it is clear that you're really objection is that it just bothers you. You don't like it... because. Then you go scrounging around for some reason, any reason, to oppose it. But that's not how logic works. Action must follow the facts, not vice versa.
The bigger gas stations in my area do have have generators.
Your focus should be on demanding that your political leaders force your service provider to bring Alabama into the modern age.
Spoken like someone whose profile says they live in New Jersey.
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