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Yep, agreed. Trust me, most black/brown folks can see right through the ones who are trying too hard. Just be yourself and ask honest questions if you are wondering about something. Otherwise, people just want real people around them, period.
People used to say Jae’da Turner was stuck in Boston.
Because Black folk from outside of the city often see it as a place to pass through but not plant roots. Those people are not from here.
Turner isn’t trapped. She’s at home.
“Having to defend Boston is a real sport,” Turner says. “As a student at Northeastern, people coming from New York, California, and all across the country, I think they honestly love to hate Boston. It’s like a little club. It’s not cool if you say you’re from Boston.”
And that’s the Boston Turner fights to celebrate. Growing up in Dorchester and Mattapan, she saw Black people owning triple-deckers and houses passed down through the generations. As a child, parent-teacher conferences were held at the historic Twelfth Baptist Church in Roxbury, the oldest descendant of the African Baptist Church. The Boston she knows is Black, proud, and beautiful. She’s committed to continuing that legacy.
Is this true? It may be uncomfortable to admit-but is it true? I find this to be very true for black people who've never spent significant time in Boston. But I also find it true for 'woke' white people and the social justice inclined anchors at ESPN. But has anyone ever actually stopped and thought about the damage that this inflicts on black and brown Bostonians psychologically and socially. I for one say that the aversion to Boston and considerations for its black and brown community-form other POC and white people alike. Is easily far more hurtful and impactful than whatever racism we may encounter in Boston. And it's more omnipresent.
I mean how could it actually help the city turn a corner when there zero support for the city's oppressed from people outside of the city. It's one thing to have the image of Boston be whitewashed but to have the actual discussion of the issue also be focused on the experiences of visitors or experiences in white neighborhoods is more damaging.
If you call an entire metro area "racist", you're guilty of the same type of bigotry that we would condemn if it were against a racial/ethnic group.
"All Blacks are criminals"
"All Irish are drunks"
"All Bostonians are racist"
Same thing.
No it's not the same thing. Sure, everyone can stereotype or be biased and bigoted against any other race; but there the impact of being biased/bigoted against a race that is both the majority of the population and currently/historically holds power in the institutions that shape the way we live has MUCH less of an impact than when the people in power are bigoted towards minority populations that have been historically discriminated against and don't control the institutions that shape the way we live. That should be obvious.
You can be black and hate white people, but that hatred doesn't really impact white people because it doesn't have influence over whether or not they can get jobs/advance a career, how they access healthcare, how they find places to live, how they're treated by law enforcement, etc. That's why it's asinine to say "it's the same." It may be be bigoted, it's certainly not "nice," but the impact of that bigotry is drastically different.
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If we wanted to measure the level of racism in a particular place, we'd have to do a survey or poll with a criteria that states a person's individual preferences. For example:
1. Are you comfortable living next door to someone of another racial background as yours?
2. What races are you uncomfortable being around.
No, racism isn't just about whether or not people "like" (or even tolerate) someone of a different racial background than themselves. That's the tip of the iceberg and it's hard to measure apart from the anecdotes (and there are plenty of them). The bigger issue is the institutional racism that leads to massive inequity in the city and there's plenty of data on that.
There's data from multiple studies in Boston on landlords and employers disproportionately ignoring emails from prospective tenants/employees with black sounding names relative to white sounding names (and Asian sounding names, actually).
Black families in Boston have drastically lower net worth than white families.
Until the 60s, racial discrimination by lenders was legal in Boston and intended to keep black neighborhoods isolated and poor (google "Redlining in Boston") - while it's no longer technically legal, little has changed in terms of the affluence of black neighborhoods and even if conditions were fair today (they're not), that type of change would take generations to improve.
Black people in Boston have less access to quality healthcare than their white counterparts.
Black people receive sentences that are 20% longer than their white counterparts for the same crimes.
The data really isn't disputable and it really doesn't matter if it's technically better or worse than other metros (it's still bad). The only thing to do is argue the "why," and there are only 2 possible explanations as far as I'm concerned. One is that Boston's black population is simply not up to the task of achieving success in the same way that Boston's white population is (you know, literal white superiority). The other is that the black population in Boston does not have the same opportunities as the white population due to institutional racism and biases that still permeate the housing, education, employment, criminal justice, healthcare, etc. systems. I think it's pretty obviously the latter, but there are plenty who are arguing the former without quite saying they think it's the former.
No it's not the same thing. Sure, everyone can stereotype or be biased and bigoted against any other race; but there the impact of being biased/bigoted against a race that is both the majority of the population and currently/historically holds power in the institutions that shape the way we live has MUCH less of an impact than when the people in power are bigoted towards minority populations that have been historically discriminated against and don't control the institutions that shape the way we live. That should be obvious.
[...]
The data really isn't disputable and it really doesn't matter if it's technically better or worse than other metros (it's still bad). The only thing to do is argue the "why," and there are only 2 possible explanations as far as I'm concerned. One is that Boston's black population is simply not up to the task of achieving success in the same way that Boston's white population is (you know, literal white superiority). The other is that the black population in Boston does not have the same opportunities as the white population due to institutional racism
I agree with some of what is said here, but not with everything..
First, it seems quite important to know if it's technically better or worse than other metros. That seems to be a main point of the topic: Is Boston's reputation for being especially racist actually justified? or is it an ingroup signal(aka it's cool) within certain circles that spreads at the expense of the black and brown communities, perhaps even above and beyond the expense of actual racism. That's straight from the OP and put it better than I did.
Second I think those two explanations for the outcomes you mentioned are too reductive to explain a complex situation.
Lastly on the first part of the post. There are definitely different types of biases that have different impacts based on relative power dynamics. I think in America we have a tendency to see oppression in the context of a (white male) majority wielding power at the expense of minority groups.
This is natural given our history, but it's not universal. Often times a minority group is the one that wields power at the expense of the majority. This is quite common for example Apartheid era South Africa, Indian economic domination in parts of East Africa, Spanish in Latin America or Chinese in Southeast Asia. In some ways this also reflects the dynamics of the antebellum South.
I think the dynamic is still at play now in America, alongside other kinds of bias. The majority of people do lack influence and institutional power, which is extremely concentrated in the hands of a small number of people. Those lines of power roughly follow racialized lines, but they aren't really defined by them anymore. Nowadays they are defined by class. The powerful minority is willing to let a handful of POC into their group if it shuts up the rest.
There's data from multiple studies in Boston on landlords and employers disproportionately ignoring emails from prospective tenants/employees with black sounding names relative to white sounding names (and Asian sounding names, actually).
Black families in Boston have drastically lower net worth than white families.
Until the 60s, racial discrimination by lenders was legal in Boston and intended to keep black neighborhoods isolated and poor (google "Redlining in Boston") - while it's no longer technically legal, little has changed in terms of the affluence of black neighborhoods and even if conditions were fair today (they're not), that type of change would take generations to improve.
Black people in Boston have less access to quality healthcare than their white counterparts.
Black people receive sentences that are 20% longer than their white counterparts for the same crimes.
.
The thing is though not one single thing on this list is unique to Boston, at all. For example your first data point...
^Your black name is always a problem no matter where you live.
Even in other cities the Black American net worth in NYC or LA is 2-3000 dollars (a lot higher than Boston's 8 Dollars) but the white median net worth is still 350-350k in those cities. Black Caribbean immigrants have greater networth in Boston than in DC..
Any city with a black population that was measurable prior to 1965 was redlined. No city in America do black people have equal access to healthcare as white people.
There are things unique to Boston, but they're not really on that list.
First, it seems quite important to know if it's technically better or worse than other metros. That seems to be a main point of the topic: Is Boston's reputation for being especially racist actually justified? or is it an ingroup signal(aka it's cool) within certain circles that spreads at the expense of the black and brown communities, perhaps even above and beyond the expense of actual racism. That's straight from the OP and put it better than I did.
I don't disagree that it's important to know whether or not the reputation is justified, particularly for the reasons BostonBornMassMade outlined. But as long as Boston's racial disparities exist (and regardless of whether or not they're actually worse than other cities), it's going to be impossible for the city to shake that racist reputation. It seems unlikely you can change the perception until you change the reality, and there are big issues with the reality. A side effect of the "is the perception justified?" question is that it's an easy crutch for people to lean on when they don't want to face the realities of Boston's inequity.
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Second I think those two explanations for the outcomes you mentioned are too reductive to explain a complex situation.
It's definitely simplified to the fullest extent, but the reality is that many of the conversations about racism here do come down to this. There's a sizable contingent of the population who downright refuse to hear anything about racism and the poster I was responding to seemed to be fixated on the most obvious elements of racism.
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Lastly on the first part of the post. There are definitely different types of biases that have different impacts based on relative power dynamics. I think in America we have a tendency to see oppression in the context of a (white male) majority wielding power at the expense of minority groups.
This is natural given our history, but it's not universal..
All good points, and Boston proper is actually a "majority/minority" city now, so it's relevant. But the institutions here are very much relics of the white-male majority power dynamics.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
The thing is though not one single thing on this list is unique to Boston, at all. For example your first data point...
^Your black name is always a problem no matter where you live.
Even in other cities the Black American net worth in NYC or LA is 2-3000 dollars (a lot higher than Boston's 8 Dollars) but the white median net worth is still 350-350k in those cities. Black Caribbean immigrants have greater networth in Boston than in DC..
Any city with a black population that was measurable prior to 1965 was redlined. No city in America do black people have equal access to healthcare as white people.
There are things unique to Boston, but they're not really on that list.
You're right. And I think it's a function of where we're focusing our attention on the issue of racism in Boston. No argument with much of what you're saying about Boston not really being worse than other places. But it's also clear that Boston has some major disparities. Both the reputation and the disparities here are going to take a lot of effort to change.
I get the same amount of resistance from older black people who grew up in the 70s/80s. Usually, in regard to my city, they cite Red Sox, bussing and Charles Stuart and its a closed book.
There are however many older black people that over the course of their long lives have become more familiar with black Boston and or the culture there. They've just had that overlap, by chance, overtime.
I also find that in the 1960s/70s when black people were getting "established" in these big northern cities as a fore to be reckoned with- it must have been an exciting time with people freely visiting the black enclaves of various cities-Boston included. As media became bigger and more influential from the 1980s onward you had a heavy over-representation of white Boston and an underrepresentation of Black Boston which contributed to the "mainstream media" image of the city that's settled in.
I do think though that the Boston is racist rallying cry has picked up over the past few years as systemic racism is being reexamined. It's considered 'enlightened to look at Boston as opposed to southern locales. I also get this weird weird notion that people think Bostoniansdont know this rep or don't think there's racism in the city or don't talk about it. Couldn't be further from the truth. Its pretty much always a topic of conversation in Massachusetts-non stop. Long before George Floyd.
What's more disturbing about this^ is it totally obliterates decades of anti-racist work by black people and their allies in Boston. Too many efforts to change Boston have been called surface level or ineffective and it's a serious disincentive form continuing the work if it's never going to be appreciated.
A few years ago, I think there was an online study that showed(I think after some controversial event occurred, I forgot what it was) racist tweets coming from the Boston area, vs. other parts of the US. And I'm not sure if that study, unfortunately helps with the negative stereotypes blacks from the rest of the US have when it comes to Boston. That said they shouldn't worry about that, since I suspect visiting that city they wouldn't have a bad time visiting vs. the stereotypes.
But of course, there is no doubt it can take a little while for old stereotypes to die. I'm going to guess this is what is happening, here.
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Originally Posted by personone
I honestly don't know why Boston has this reputation. Outside of hearing about it, I've never heard any details about why Boston is racist. It's kinda like how the North Side of Chicago gets a negative rep for racism too. I have seen blacks out and about in social places with no problem.
Yeah, same here. I do in a way get black people(if they hadn't been to Chicago before, or hadn't spent a lot of time on the north side) being worried about going to places on the north side, but I've seen them in plenty of places up here(and I live there, too) without any problems. Also have seen plenty of businesses posting black lives matter signs, as well.
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