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And the Franco-Ontarian community is still playing catch-up when it comes to institutions. It may never fully catch up, to be honest.
First off, in terms of treatment I was referring mostly to laws. The fact is, a Franco-Ontarian will never be prevented by law from putting up a sign in French, or having a business of any size in which French is the main spoken language. Now, it does puzzle me why Francophones in majority French Ontario communities still mostly put up signs in English (to cater to people from other parts of the province?) but the point is, nobody is forcing them to do this.
In terms of institutions I mean that going to a French public school in a heavily Francophone part of Canada, whether for local Francophones, immigrants, or anyone else, isn't difficult. In Quebec, getting an English public education is incredibly difficult or impossible if you don't have the right background.
As far as universities go, perhaps it is simply a case of a lack of demand? For one, the English-speaking universities in Quebec, I'd wager, probably aren't even populated mostly by Quebec Anglophones, but largely by English speakers from Ontario, other parts of Canada and the United States (not to mention around the world). So, there's the fact that the demand for McGill and Concordia isn't just an Anglo Quebecker demand.
Now, of course, you could invert that argument and state maybe there's a big enough demand for a Francophone university in Ottawa (not just from Franco Ontarians but Quebecois and Acadians too). Well, maybe there is...but I doubt that any sort of lack of effort to accomodate Ontario Francophones is the reason behind it not existing. It's probably simply lack of an overtly recognised demand.
Also I don't think Laurentian and U of Ottawa having French language classes is insignificant, and I bet many students are able to fully complete their programs in French. Now I'd say that is a problem, when students aren't able to fully carry out their programs in French at these universities as you mentioned here in this thread, and it should be remedied, but I REALLY don't see how this is the equivalent of the anti-English sanctions that Anglophone Quebecers face. At all.
I simply fail to see how the lack of a Francophone university in Ontario could be compared to the anti-English business and signage and education laws in Quebec, in terms of how the linguistic community is treated and accomodated by the government. I am sure if there was enough Franco Ontarian desire for a university in Ontario, they'd build one, my gut feeling is that there just isn't much demand.
Also, I don't buy the premise that the lack of a university is insufficient accomodation, in the same way that being prevented from doing business in one's own language (in a workplace with above a certain number of people) is. One of them is simply a lack of accomodation (and perhaps a relatively insignificant lack, considering how easy it is to just go to Quebec for university in French), while the other is an active effort to undermine the community from flourishing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
Ottawa was once a majority French-speaking city and close to half the population of the eastern part of the city have French-Canadian names even though only 15% of the population is francophone. Places like Cornwall and Timmins are the same: the majority of people have French surnames but less than half or even a third are francophones.
Places like Pembroke and the Upper Ottawa Valley, the Windsor area and the Georgian Bay area were once predominantly francophone communities but the presence of French in these areas has dwindled and in some cases disappeared.
A very similar story could be told of Anglophones in Quebec, in many regions. Also, my father grew up in Pembroke in the 1950s and 60s, and it was very much majority English then.
Ontario has made measures to undermine French in the past, Quebec has made measures to undermine English in the past. The difference is, only one still does it today.
Last edited by Redrum237; 09-21-2012 at 06:45 PM..
But this is the chicken and the egg reasoning, you need to have security that your degree will be awarded to you regardless if demand lessens half way through your program. Otherwise demand will be weak.
The only difference is it's clear that the anti egg culture was put in place first.
Canada should of had much stronger bilingualism culture quite some time ago. If it were this whole mess could of been avoided.
People don't learn french because there's no point, there no point because there's no government support.
Cost to federal government for supporting bilingualism across Canada????
2 of the Anglo universities are in downtown Montreal where the demographics support such institutions and the other is in the Eastern townships and is drawing on the remaining Anglo culture of the area to sustain itself, as soon as the demand is not there those universities will either close down or change to French institutions.
You really think McGill and Concordia are going to close down or change to French universities? That's ridiculous. Talk about doom and gloom. Even if Montreal's entire anglophone community save for students packed up and left (which again isn't going to happen), these universities would still exist. They're simply too highly regarded to just close, not to mention the students live in somewhat of a self-contained bubble little affected by the rest of the city anyway.
First off, in terms of treatment I was referring mostly to laws. The fact is, a Franco-Ontarian will never be prevented by law from putting up a sign in French, or having a business of any size in which French is the main spoken language. Now, it does puzzle me why Francophones in majority French Ontario communities still mostly put up signs in English (to cater to people from other parts of the province?) but the point is, nobody is forcing them to do this.
.
It's mostly large Canadian or multinational corporations that post English only signs in mainly Franco-Ontarian communities.
First off, in terms of treatment I was referring mostly to laws. The fact is, a Franco-Ontarian will never be prevented by law from putting up a sign in French, or having a business of any size in which French is the main spoken language. Now, it does puzzle me why Francophones in majority French Ontario communities still mostly put up signs in English (to cater to people from other parts of the province?) but the point is, nobody is forcing them to do this.
In terms of institutions I mean that going to a French public school in a heavily Francophone part of Canada, whether for local Francophones, immigrants, or anyone else, isn't difficult. In Quebec, getting an English public education is incredibly difficult or impossible if you don't have the right background.
As far as universities go, perhaps it is simply a case of a lack of demand? For one, the English-speaking universities in Quebec, I'd wager, probably aren't even populated mostly by Quebec Anglophones, but largely by English speakers from Ontario, other parts of Canada and the United States (not to mention around the world). So, there's the fact that the demand for McGill and Concordia isn't just an Anglo Quebecker demand.
Now, of course, you could invert that argument and state maybe there's a big enough demand for a Francophone university in Ottawa (not just from Franco Ontarians but Quebecois and Acadians too). Well, maybe there is...but I doubt that any sort of lack of effort to accomodate Ontario Francophones is the reason behind it not existing. It's probably simply lack of an overtly recognised demand.
Also I don't think Laurentian and U of Ottawa having French language classes is insignificant, and I bet many students are able to fully complete their programs in French. Now I'd say that is a problem, when students aren't able to fully carry out their programs in French at these universities as you mentioned here in this thread, and it should be remedied, but I REALLY don't see how this is the equivalent of the anti-English sanctions that Anglophone Quebecers face. At all.
I simply fail to see how the lack of a Francophone university in Ontario could be compared to the anti-English business and signage and education laws in Quebec, in terms of how the linguistic community is treated and accomodated by the government. I am sure if there was enough Franco Ontarian desire for a university in Ontario, they'd build one, my gut feeling is that there just isn't much demand.
Also, I don't buy the premise that the lack of a university is insufficient accomodation, in the same way that being prevented from doing business in one's own language (in a workplace with above a certain number of people) is. One of them is simply a lack of accomodation (and perhaps a relatively insignificant lack, considering how easy it is to just go to Quebec for university in French), while the other is an active effort to undermine the community from flourishing.
A very similar story could be told of Anglophones in Quebec, in many regions. Also, my father grew up in Pembroke in the 1950s and 60s, and it was very much majority English then.
Ontario has made measures to undermine French in the past, Quebec has made measures to undermine English in the past. The difference is, only one still does it today.
I think that the argument could be made that lack of full institutional support to produce educated professionals from a specific language group who are proficient in that language is far more damaging than a sign law that says that a specific language has to appear on signs, but does not prevent the minority's language from appearing along with it. (It is a popular misconception - or is it deliberate? - that English is banned on signs in Quebec. It is not.)
It is a popular misconception - or is it deliberate? - that English is banned on signs in Quebec. It is not.)
I've never seen an English sign actually banned,Unless its an English only sign then it would be illegal,absolutely verboten.. If you are going to put up an English sign the English text must be half the size of the French text and it also has to be on the bottom of the sign or below the French text, guess it gives the Government some kinda feeling of dominance/powertrip,most sign posters just dont bother with hassle of trying to figure out what the governments comlex and everchanging restrictions on signs are and just post French signs. Some reading on the issue and how it came to be.. Speaking out: Quebec's debate over language laws - Canada - CBC News
Although most highway signs have been reduced to pictograms when it comes to parking signs you're on your own.
Last edited by jambo101; 09-22-2012 at 12:53 PM..
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Sign Restrictions vs. Institutions
