Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
This is why we believe this.
If we go straight to heaven, consciously, to live with Jesus when we die, then there is no reason for a resurrection. We will already be in heaven living with Jesus forever.
But Jesus says that there will come an hour when the dead will hear His voice and those who hear, will live.
They are not living until they hear His voice.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Many point to this scripture to say that when we die, we consciously go to be with Jesus.
Philippians 1: 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 [s]But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know [t]which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus has the keys to death and Hades. (Revelations 1:18) They are in His hands. We are in His hands when we die because He has the keys to death and Hades.
When we are resurrected or raised by the Lord, we will see Him face to face. We will be with Him consciously then. Paul knew this. He understood that death is only a temporary condition. It is described as sleep because it is not a permanent condition. Paul knew that when he was raised by the Lord, He would immediately be with the Lord consciously. When we are raised by the Lord, it will be as if no time has passed. The dead do not know that they are dead.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words..
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-29-2020 at 06:21 PM..
The world is covered with the dead but they don’t know it. Only the son, the servant of God lives.
I live.
I am the resurrection and the life.
Those who hear my voice will live. My sheep hear my voice. The reason you do not hear is you are not among my sheep.
The man who comes to me hears my word and uses it.
Come to me all you who are weary and carry a heavy load and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am meek and humble of heart and you will find rest for yourself for my yoke is upright and my burden is light.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
This is why we believe this.
If we go straight to heaven, consciously, to live with Jesus when we die, then there is no reason for a resurrection. We will already be in heaven living with Jesus forever.
But Jesus says that there will come an hour when the dead will hear His voice and those who hear, will live.
They are not living until they hear His voice.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Many point to this scripture to say that when we die, we consciously go to be with Jesus.
Philippians 1: 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 [s]But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know [t]which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus has the keys to death and Hades. (Revelations 1:18) They are in His hands. We are in His hands when we die because He has the keys to death and Hades.
When we are resurrected or raised by the Lord, we will see Him face to face. We will be with Him consciously then. Paul knew this. He understood that death is only a temporary condition. It is described as sleep because it is not a permanent condition. Paul knew that when he was raised by the Lord, He would immediately be with the Lord consciously. When we are raised by the Lord, it will be as if no time has passed. The dead do not know that they are dead.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words..
God bless.
Hi Shana. I know that we'll continue to disagree on this issue, but I believe that we do go to heaven after we die. I take John's vision in Revelation 7:9-14 of seeing a great multitude of people from every nation, tribe, and peoples and tongues literally. If what John said isn't literal but was intended as being symbolic or allegoric for something else, then what was the symbolism pertaining to? What could it possibly mean other than what it says?
The ancient Hebrews, at least many of them, believed that life continued on in some way after physical death. We know this because people paid necromancers to contact the dead and the Mosaic Law forbade that practice. And of course king Saul asked a necromancer to bring up the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel so he could seek advice from him. So the belief that the dead could be contacted certainly existed in ancient Israel even if not everyone may have believed it.
I also think that Paul's statement of his desire to depart and be with the Lord means that he knew that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven, and the believer is positionally in Jesus, so why not be literally with Jesus in heaven when we die?
I disagree with the idea that if the soul goes to be with the Lord when you die that it means that resurrection isn't necessary because it isn't God's plan for people to go though eternity as a bodiless spirit. Heaven is just a temporary waiting place for those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection.
Again, I know that we'll disagree on this, and that's okay. I'm just giving my reasons for believing that there is life after death, and that as N.T. Wright puts it---resurrection is life after life after death.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-29-2020 at 07:55 PM..
Reason: Inserted a question mark in place of a period.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
This is why we believe this.
If we go straight to heaven, consciously, to live with Jesus when we die, then there is no reason for a resurrection. We will already be in heaven living with Jesus forever.
But Jesus says that there will come an hour when the dead will hear His voice and those who hear, will live.
They are not living until they hear His voice.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Many point to this scripture to say that when we die, we consciously go to be with Jesus.
Philippians 1: 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 [s]But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know [t]which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus has the keys to death and Hades. (Revelations 1:18) They are in His hands. We are in His hands when we die because He has the keys to death and Hades.
When we are resurrected or raised by the Lord, we will see Him face to face. We will be with Him consciously then. Paul knew this. He understood that death is only a temporary condition. It is described as sleep because it is not a permanent condition. Paul knew that when he was raised by the Lord, He would immediately be with the Lord consciously. When we are raised by the Lord, it will be as if no time has passed. The dead do not know that they are dead.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words..
God bless.
Well, since none of us here have experienced death and come back to tell us about it ...who knows for sure what occurs at or after death? HOWEVER, your belief certainly DOES align with what scripture has to say on the topic. The dead are presently 'sleeping' and will know nothing until the resurrection ...according to scripture.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
This is why we believe this.
If we go straight to heaven, consciously, to live with Jesus when we die, then there is no reason for a resurrection. We will already be in heaven living with Jesus forever.
But Jesus says that there will come an hour when the dead will hear His voice and those who hear, will live.
They are not living until they hear His voice.
My first reaction upon reading this was, "Yes! That is absolutely right!" When I re-read it, a couple of questions did come to my mind, though, and while I think our beliefs have much in common, we may disagree as to a few points. So, rather than commenting further at this point, I would like to ask you a question or two. What exactly do your mean when you say that our spirit returns to God? In other words, exactly what do you mean by "our spirit"? What is it about us that returns to God? Is it consciousness? Is it life of some sort? Is it a cognizant entity? I've always thought of the spirit as the source of life and believe that, unlike the body, it does not die. What are your thoughts on this?
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.
Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." He didn't say, "Today you will be with me in Heaven."
When He first appeared to Mary on Easter morning following His resurrection, He told her not to touch Him and explained why. "I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Now this took place three days following His death, three days following when He told the thief on the cross that he'd see Him in Paradise that very day. This indicates that perhaps Paradise and Heaven are not the same place after all. He could have seen the thief in Paradise on the day they both died, but three days later had not ascended to His Father in Heaven.
Quote:
Are you saying Jesus lied?
Why do people always ask questions like this? Why do we accuse each other of saying Jesus lied? Would you like it if I were to ask you if you thought Jesus lied to Mary? After all, if Paradise and Heaven are one and the same, and if He told the thief on the cross that he'd see Him in Paradise the day they died, there's a discrepancy that must be addressed. Don't worry; I don't think you'd accuse Jesus of lying. You may have just failed to consider the point I just raised.
My first reaction upon reading this was, "Yes! That is absolutely right!" When I re-read it, a couple of questions did come to my mind, though, and while I think our beliefs have much in common, we may disagree as to a few points. So, rather than commenting further at this point, I would like to ask you a question or two. What exactly do your mean when you say that our spirit returns to God? In other words, exactly what do you mean by "our spirit"? What is it about us that returns to God? Is it consciousness? Is it life of some sort? Is it a cognizant entity? I've always thought of the spirit as the source of life and believe that, unlike the body, it does not die. What are your thoughts on this?
The question wasn't asked of me but I'll offer an answer. The 'spirit' is translated as 'pneuma' or 'breath'. 'Death' is, according to the Bible, the opposite to 'life' where God initially breathed into the nostrils of Adam and Adam then became a living being or 'soul'.
So, God gave a human life by giving that being the ability to breathe oxygen. At death the breath of that person ceases to function and it, the 'spirit', returns to God who initially gave it. Whether God bottles that breath once He receives it, corks it, labels it and awaits to breath it once again into that being at their resurrection ...who knows?
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Seems to me, he said that repentant thief was going to paradise IMMEDIATELY at death.
Are you saying Jesus lied?
So silly. It's you who implies that Jesus lied. But, I'll only accuse you of being scripturally inept. The Bible, not "I" but the Bible, tells us that the dead live again at the resurrection and not until. The dead are referred to as 'sleeping in their graves' and we're consistently told this in every scripture that refers to 'the dead'. Those who state otherwise simply contradict scripture. Jesus would not have contradicted scripture and so we need to align scripture with scripture and conclude that the quote itself, "Today you will be with me in Paradise", if even accurate, is certainly misunderstood by present-day Bible readers. Lord knows, they get it wrong SO MUCH of the time as it is so this is not exactly a startling revelation!
Yes, 'Paradise' IS synonymous with 'Heaven' and is not a 'holding bay' of some description as has been invented by some people. Sheesh, the things they come up with! Moreover, MikeBear, if you were to look at your Bible a little closer than you evidently do then you will find that Jesus didn't go to Paradise (Heaven) that day! See John 20:17. Three days after His crucifixion Jesus rose from the dead. An excited Mary wanted to embrace Him. Jesus said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." God is in Heaven or 'Paradise'.
Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise (Heaven) on that crucifixion day!
One more time. The dead 'sleep'. The scriptures are CONSISTENT with the equation of 'death=sleep'. Any other belief is a contradiction of scripture and it IS scripture we're attempting to uphold here and not mere opinions or popular misinterpretations of scripture invented simply to tally with church doctrine.
Death is the penalty for sin, and all have sinned, and all must pay the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they have made in their life on earth. Yes, all have sinned and must die once then go off into Judgement. What is it that goes off into Judgement? It is the spirit, the invisible mind that had developed within that physical womb.
Isaiah 57: 1-2; Good people die and no one understands or even cares, but when they (GOOD PEOPLE) die. no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives, find peace and rest in death, assured of the resurrection.
If the righteous find peace and rest in death, what befalls the wicked? Peace and rest also? NO! Those who lead wicked lives find no peace or rest in death, they must endure the terrible mental torment of their own making as they await the great day of Judgement, the great unknown.
Will they, who have suffered the first death, which is that of the body in which they the invisible minds/spirits developed, live, or will they be cast into the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death, 'The death of the mind' sweet and eternal oblivion, no more suffering, no more anything.
The choice of life or death stands before all. It is our choice.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
