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The average Christian funeral would be extra depressing once you take out loved one is in Heaven with the Lord right now part. Just about every funeral ive been to, its the absent from the body and present with the Lord that starts to cheer folks up and take alot of sadness out of the air.
I wonder how the funerals would have went saying he is dead in the grave waiting to be resurrected at the resurrection one day.
Can't be 'present ' with the Lord because ' resurrection ' is still coming according to Acts 24:15 ' future tense ' that ' there will be ' a resurrection..........
Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming ' Millennium-Long Day ' for governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Even the friends and the followers of Jesus believed that the dead 'sleep' until the day of their resurrection. Within the Lazarus story we see that Martha's theology on the topic was pretty sound. Here are the relevant verses to prove my point:
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
It had been clearly taught to Martha (a Jew) that her brother would live again on the resurrection morning and NOT UNTIL. The disciples also knew that 'death' equates to 'sleep' as we see here in this verse:
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
So, why are we confusing this issue by introducing some man-made nonsense about some form of existence in 'Paradise' between human death and everlasting life? And, why do we continue to dispute what we are clearly told in scripture that the dead DON'T go immediately to Heaven but rather 'rest' in their graves - nothing in between - until resurrection?
The average Christian funeral would be extra depressing once you take out loved one is in Heaven with the Lord right now part. Just about every funeral ive been to, its the absent from the body and present with the Lord that starts to cheer folks up and take alot of sadness out of the air.
I wonder how the funerals would have went saying he is dead in the grave waiting to be resurrected at the resurrection one day.
Irrelevant to the topic. We can sugar-coat anything with a fairy story. However, would it not be more comforting to know that the deceased loved one rests peacefully and is not aware of the grieving and the suffering of those they have left behind ...that they 'sleep' and await resurrection when they will be eventually reunited?
Even the friends and the followers of Jesus believed that the dead 'sleep' until the day of their resurrection. Within the Lazarus story we see that Martha's theology on the topic was pretty sound. Here are the relevant verses to prove my point:
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
So, why are we confusing this issue by introducing some man-made nonsense about some form of existence in 'Paradise' between human death and everlasting life? And, why do we continue to dispute what we are clearly told in scripture that the dead DON'T go immediately to Heaven but rather 'rest' in their graves - nothing in between - until resurrection?
Besides Heaven for some ( like those Luke 22:28-30; Rev, 2:10; 20:6 ) the majority of mankind ( John 3:13 ) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection. ALL the people Jesus resurrected were physical resurrections.
Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming 'Millennium-Long Day' of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
The figurative living humble ' sheep ' at the coming ' time of separation ' are alive on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
They can remain alive on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus 1,000-year reign over Earth with everlasting life offered on a beautiful paradisical Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
Where do you get this 'personal view' from, Mike? It certainly isn't scriptural. And, as much as I'm reluctant to say this since, on some other biblical issues, I don't agree with this person at all, I DO agree for the most part with Choir Loft on this topic. There is NO reference in scripture to any kind of 'holding bay' or 'compartment' by the name of 'Paradise' between death and that glorified immortal and incorruptible resurrected body that you speak of. It's all made up nonsense that, it would seem, even some of 'the elect' tend to be taken in by. Why further complicate something that we have no precise knowledge about anyway?
'Paradise' is synonymous with 'Heaven' (or, even, maybe a vague reference to 'the new earth') and there is no (scriptural) reason whatever for it to be given another meaning pertaining to some place that exists between human death and everlasting life. So, whether the creation of humans is told in a 'cartoon-ish' manner in Genesis and is therefore not a 'literal' account, 'death' is also described in much the same way with regard to the breath (the 'spirit') returning to God who gave it in the first place. Simply reverse the Creation story and you have it. As far as scripture is concerned, the dead simply die (or 'sleep') until the day of their resurrection. They don't go anywhere else in between and to suggest that they do (what would be the reason??) is pure fiction. The dead (Ecclesiastes 9:5) KNOW NOTHING!
All of the above, of course, assumes that the words in the Bible are not pure fiction.
The Bible has to be interpreted in the time in which it was written. In Jesus' day, in Jewish thought, the righteous who died for their faith went to Abraham's Bosom which was synonymous with paradise.
From the Jewish encylopedia; the entry on Abraham's Bosom/Paradise
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:
By: Kaufmann Kohler
In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).
In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own. Whereupon Abraham said: "They have the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets; let them be mindful of these, and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden of paradise, like Michael in Jewish and St. Peter in Christian folk-lore ("Texts and Studies," v. 55, 69, Cambridge). Of Abraham as attorney pleading for Israel, R. Jonathan also speaks (Shab. 89b). ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
In Acts 2:31, Luke relates how king David looked ahead to the fact of Jesus' resurrection and that he was not abandoned to Hades.
So it is said both that when Jesus died he went to Hades (not hell), and that he went to paradise and told one of the criminals crucified next to him that he would be with him in paradise that day (and no, it is not a matter of punctuation---Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" vs. Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.") which is synonymous with Abraham's Bosom.
A parable, while being a fictitious story, nevertheless relates something that has a basis in reality. When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, with Lazarus being in Abraham's Bosom that was a reference to paradise. Yet, again, Acts 2:31 speaks of Jesus going to Hades but not being abandoned there. Yet,the rich man in Hades was able to see Lazarus which indicates a close spacial relation between Paradise and Hades. Now, I've already said that the story was a parable. I also already said that a parable, while fictitious also has a basis in fact.
Furthermore, the Bible speaks of a place called Tartarus to which a certain group of angels were imprisoned (2 Peter 2:4). In Greek mythology the Titans who were the children of the primordial gods, were imprisoned in Tartarus by Zeus. Tartarus was the lowest part of Hades. But Peter stated that it a group of angels who were imprisoned in Tartarus. Since Peter borrowed Tartarus from Greek mythology to describe the prison of those angels, it can be inferred that Tartarus as used by Peter is also a part of Hades.
And so, yes, there is certainly a scriptural basis for stating that when Jesus died his body went into the tomb and his soul and spirit went to paradise which at the time was located in a section of Hades/Sheol.
Hi Shana. I know that we'll continue to disagree on this issue, but I believe that we do go to heaven after we die. I take John's vision in Revelation 7:9-14 of seeing a great multitude of people from every nation, tribe, and peoples and tongues literally. If what John said isn't literal but was intended as being symbolic or allegoric for something else, then what was the symbolism pertaining to? What could it possibly mean other than what it says?
The ancient Hebrews, at least many of them, believed that life continued on in some way after physical death. We know this because people paid necromancers to contact the dead and the Mosaic Law forbade that practice. And of course king Saul asked a necromancer to bring up the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel so he could seek advice from him. So the belief that the dead could be contacted certainly existed in ancient Israel even if not everyone may have believed it.
I also think that Paul's statement of his desire to depart and be with the Lord means that he knew that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven, and the believer is positionally in Jesus, so why not be literally with Jesus in heaven when we die?
I disagree with the idea that if the soul goes to be with the Lord when you die that it means that resurrection isn't necessary because it isn't God's plan for people to go though eternity as a bodiless spirit. Heaven is just a temporary waiting place for those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection.
Again, I know that we'll disagree on this, and that's okay. I'm just giving my reasons for believing that there is life after death, and that as N.T. Wright puts it---resurrection is life after life after death.
Thanks for your response and for sharing your beliefs. In Rev. 7:9-14, there is a vision. I don't believe that visions are actual events that are occurring at the time of the vision. I believe that John saw a vision that revealed that that Jesus Christ died for all people. People from every tribe, nation, tongue would be positively affected by what He did for them.
I do believe that many of the ancient Hebrews believed in people actually living after they died, but this is not what the Hebrew scriptures taught. For example:
Daniel 12: 12 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.
2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Young's Literal)
Those who are sleeping n the dust of the ground awake. Sleeping in the dust of the ground means that they are dead. Jesus referred to death as sleep. This does not mean that he was speaking of soul sleep but He was sharing that death is like sleep. It is like sleep because it is only a temporary state.
Psalm 114: 16 The heavens -- the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,
17 The dead praise not Jah, Nor any going down to silence (Young's literal)
Psalm 146
Praise ye Jah! Praise, O my soul, Jehovah.
2 I praise Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist.
3 Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance.
4 His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished. (Young's Literal)
I do not believe that the dead are aware or that they are conscious.
If we are literally with Jesus when we die, then we have not really died. We have only transitioned from one place to another. But the apostle Paul says:
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Jesus tells the disciples that He will come again and receive them to Himself. They are not going up to Him. He comes to get them and this corresponds with the previous passage shared above.
john 14
4 `Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe;
2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be;
Paul knew that when he died, He would be with the Lord when he was raised by the Lord. This corresponds with the passage in Thessalonians above.
Well, since none of us here have experienced death and come back to tell us about it ...who knows for sure what occurs at or after death? HOWEVER, your belief certainly DOES align with what scripture has to say on the topic. The dead are presently 'sleeping' and will know nothing until the resurrection ...according to scripture.
Thank you, RomulusXXV. I believe that death is described as sleep because it is only a temporary condition. The dead are actually dead and one day they will rise from death. God bless.
Yes, Paul had a heavenly calling because Paul was one of Jesus' spiritual brothers' of 1st Cor. 15:50.
Those ' brothers '( also includes Matthew 25:40 ) are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection to Heaven - Rev. 2:10; 5:9-10; 20:6
Thank you, RomulusXXV. I believe that death is described as sleep because it is only a temporary condition. The dead are actually dead and one day they will rise from death. God bless.
I find Acts 24:15 agrees with you because there ' is going to be ' (future tense) a resurrection......
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Seems to me, he said that repentant thief was going to paradise IMMEDIATELY at death.
Are you saying Jesus lied?
We don't know where the commas actually are in that passage. Many scholars such as E.W. Bullinger, believe that Jesus was saying: Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
Notes: First, men have thought that Jesus would meet this sinner in Paradise-hell that very day, based on the placement of a single comma. The KJV of Luke 23:43 reads, “Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise.” By putting the word “today” at the start of the sentence, they make it appear that the Jesus would meet the thief in paradise that very day. The NASB corrects the word order, but still places the comma after “today” rather than before it. This only perpetuates the problem, for it still conveys the idea that “today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Jesus was actually saying, “Truly I say to you TODAY…” This was a Hebraism used often in the Old Testament when someone wanted to emphasize that this was a day to be remembered. For instance, in Gen. 4:14 Cain says, “Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground.”
Likewise, Moses says to Israel in Deut. 4:26, “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today…” This was the Hebrew manner of speech. We do not normally speak this way in the English language, but this expression occurs 42 times in the Old Testament.
So Jesus was not telling that repentant criminal that he would be with Him that day in a compartment of hell. He was telling the man THAT DAY that he would be with Him in the Kingdom, which He called Paradise. The correct way to read Luke 23:43, as Dr. Bullinger explains in his notes on this verse, is:
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today [or “this day”], you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
His notation reads:
43 I say unto thee, To day = “I say unto thee to day”. To day. Connect this with “I say”, to emphasize the solemnity of the occasion; not with “shalt thou be”. See the Hebraism in note on Deut. 4:26. Dr. Stephen Jones
God bless.
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