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Thanks everyone for your responses. I will try to respond to most responses this weekend. Just a quick post concerning, John 5:25. and 1 Corin. 15.
Jesus says that the dead will hear His voice and live.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
He refers to them as being in the grave or tomb.
John 5:28 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment
This means that they are dead and they will come forth.This is not only referring to the body. It is referring to the actual person. They are not living with Him in heaven if they are dead.
They are not living with Him in heaven if they will hear His voice, and then live or be judged.
They will hear Him and then and only then, will they rise from the dead. Up until that time, they are dead.
Also, the apostle Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we perish. He was speaking about some who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. He says if there is no resurrection of the dead, then we perish.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
This means that when person dies, if they are not raised from the dead, they have perished. This means that even though the spirit returns to God upon death, there is no conscious living with Him when this happens, because we perish, if we are not raised from the dead. The spirit returns to God, the body and soul die. The person is dead until they are resurrected by the Lord. The resurrection is essential, is key, is necessary for us to live again.
This is where death is defeated. Jesus defeated death when He was raised from the dead.
If we go to be with Jesus consciously, immediately when we "die" to live with Him forever, we have not really died. We are still living and there is no need for a resurrection. Again, Paul says if there is no resurrection of the dead, we perish.
Just to clarify, so when Jesus was in the grave or tomb, it was only his body that died?
And it was only his body that was resurrected to life, as he consciously never died?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I believe that when He commended His spirit into His Father's hands on the cross, that spirit left His body and His body died. I believe His spirit continued to live and be fully cognizant during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. As a matter of fact, He was said to have visited the Spirit World during this time. At the appointed time (i.e. Easter morning), His spirit re-entered His body, giving it new life. This is the resurrected body His apostles saw and touched. Later, when He ascended to Heaven, it was with this resurrected body -- a corporeal body, but one sustained not by blood but solely by spirit, and one that would never again be subject to aging, disease, injury or death.
I'm also interested in seeing Mike's response.
It appears to me that when he put his spirit into the Fathers hands that it was actually his life, consisting of his soul (not just his body) which was to be resurrected? In other words, the complete person which is indicative of the body and soul/spirit in a non-corruptible state, never to again be subjected to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
The reason for asking is based on two different beliefs or perceptions for the sake of discussion, one is that we were created prior to this physical life. And the other is that of being created in his image, or that of an ongoing process from the point of having the breath of life, breathed into us (as being the point of our origins). In other words, if our spirits resided with him prior to this physical experience, then it may be possible that only the body dies? And this has led to another question, regarding Job 38:7, while the morning stars sang together, and all the sons (daughters) of God shouted for joy? So, the Sons of God, if not angels may well have been us who sang together and shouted for joy? I have always felt that we know the end from the beginning. However, I also believe that we will experience the state of dying, if not death itself? Which is something that an immortal spirit would not, thus the only way for the experience itself would be through the process of being born anew? Where, we are transformed into a new creation, one of having a glorified body, beyond that of merely being a Spirit without that of a physical presence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Interesting questions.
I must not be understanding you because I don't see these two beliefs as being mutually exclusive. I believe that God created our spirits long before we ever came to earth. Our spirits, of course, had no corporeal substance. The were, however, fully self-aware and capable of communion with God. Our physical bodies, on the other hand, were created when we were conceived by our parents, in the image of our Father in Heaven. Now, you must understand that I believe the Father to have a glorified, immortal body, and I am referring to this form when I say we were created in His image. When God permitted our already existing spirit to enter into our body (either at conception, at birth, or sometime in between), we became "a living soul."
I absolutely do believe that we were the sons of God whom Job says shouted for joy, because as I said before, our spirits were then exactly as they are now. They just didn't reside within a physical body, giving it life. And so, if the body alone dies, the spirit could continue to exist outside of the body as it did before it give our body life. That's what I believe happens at death. The physical body is dead and, as the scriptures say, "knows nothing." Also, Ecclesiastes says, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Since it is impossible "return" to a place one has never been before, I see this as yet another indicator that our spirits once resided with God.
I think an immortal spirit could (and does) experience leaving the body at death.
The separation in beliefs was mentioned because many believe that we are just now arriving on the scene, while others believe we preexisted in spirit form. Much like the preexistence of Christ, verses that of being the first born of creation which has a beginning point. I am not trying to dispute what others believe, just attempting to comprehend the various perceptions that people have about their existence, and the point of origins. Also looking to harmonize some things like that of God having an immortal body as seen through an anamorphic lens, while others believe he is pure Spirit with or without form?
Which brings up another question: If we preexisted, and were/are waiting for a human body that can be transformed, then how many are still waiting to enter this realm? Apparently, it would be an unending cycle to infinity and beyond in either case, regardless of our origins or beginning. Although, I can already see that love has no boundaries or limits, neither would that of an Almightly God. Yet, mankind is always boxing him in with their particular views that only create separation and division for the most part. However, I would agree that neither are mutually exclusive or to be set apart - one from another.
Personally, I believe we will evolve beyond what man and his religion can fathom or comprehend presently.
Yes, rstevens62 I had a ten hour surgery and don't remember anything between drifting off to sleep and waking up! I don't believe that the soul sleeps but that Jesus calls it sleep because death is a temporary condition that we will be raised out of. Our bodies and our soul die, the soul having no more consciousness but it will return when the body is raised by the Lord. God bless.
What about those who are not bound for 'the good place'? Will they still get a 'glorified body' and return from the grave?
I cannot imagine God allowing these 2 groups of people to exist together at the same time, and both be conscious.
Pulling out, eh, Mike? Why are you making me your adversary just because I don't agree with you?
As for 'soul sleep' ...what the heck IS soul sleep and where did I ever use that term? All I have said all along in this discussion is that the Bible authors - NOT "I" - consistently refer to death as 'sleep'. So did Jesus. So did Paul. This is not 'my view'. How can you dismiss this as long as you have the ability to read from the same book as I do? Unless you have selective vision (whatever the heck that is) I simply don't understand.
As for what is held by mainstream Christianity that might differ from my understanding of scripture that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY equates death to 'sleep', all I can say is that mainstream Christianity is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You know very well what the doctrine of soul sleep is. And since you apparently believe that the soul sleeps, you believe in soul sleep which is a doctrine that some denominations teach. And it's a false teaching.
Since "I" haven't died yet and nobody has ever returned from the dead to tell me of their after-death experience I can only go by what the Bible says about the state of the dead. And, that's all I've discussed here on this thread. So, why are you hitting out at me? Moreover, why are you avoiding any discussion on those VERY CLEAR scriptures that state UNEQUIVOCALLY that death equates to sleep? How can you be accusing me of making this up as long as you have the ability to read? It's silly.
As for your 'soul sleep' ...that's a false as well as a derogatory term that was made up by ignoramuses simply to vilify the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a denomination that simply believes what the Bible says about the state of the dead. NO SDA that I've ever known has ever used that term! "I" have never used that term because, as I say, it's a derogatory term made up by ignoramuses with which to to vilify the SDA Church. I don't want to lend myself to such stupidity which, unfortunately, abounds within mainstream Christianity.
Still, a 'soul' is not something mystical according to the Bible ...remember the Bible? It's 'the Bible' that is under discussion here. A 'soul' is simply a human being. The 'breath' is that something that is mysterious and that allows the soul to live and to develop a personality and a spiritual experience. At death, the soul dies a temporary death which the Bible equates to 'sleep'. The 'breath' (or 'spirit) returns to the one who initially gave it. I do believe that the Bible credits 'God' for this. At the resurrection it (the spirit) will once again be united with the resting body ('soul'). Yes, I realize that it all sounds pretty fanciful but this is something that you probably need to take up with the Bible authors - or even God - but certainly not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Sleep is just a metaphor.
Of course it's just a metaphor. I don't believe that anyone has said otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus clearly showed that the soul does not cease to exist when the body dies (Matthew 10:28). And in John's vision in Revelation 7 the multitude of people that he saw in heaven were quite awake. The soul of those who die, neither ceases to exist nor sleeps.
I don't claim to know why Jesus said what He said or why He used words or terms that He allegedly did. Oftentimes Jesus' disciples didn't understand what Jesus said either. All I know is that the Bible consistently refers to the dead as 'sleeping', regardless of what "he said, she said." Okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And concerning Paul, since he preferred to depart and be with the Lord, he obviously did not think that he was going to be unconscious in death.
He certainly DID believe that death equates to sleep! Shana has offered the appropriate 'Pauline' Bible passages a number of times without my having to do so again. Perhaps not for Paul, however, since he possibly believed that HE would still be alive at Jesus' coming so he would therefore not experience death. People WILL still be alive and going about their business when Jesus returns, you know that, don't you?
Whenever some scriptures appear to contradict other scriptures where a specific 'something' has already been established, Mike, then you have to read between the lines in order to UN-contradict them. As said, perhaps Paul believed that he would be among those still alive at Jesus' coming; however, he also knew that the graves of the (sleeping) dead would be opened and those 'asleep' within them would be 'awoken' (i.e. resurrected) to meet with Jesus in the air. Ever heard the song, I'll Fly Away ...? For crying out loud, Mike, you don't have to take my word for this ...just read your Bible!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
But believe what you want.
I don't believe what I want. I'm just explaining what the Bible says. I haven't yet experienced death so I don't know what I 'personally' believe about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It doesn't affect me.
Clearly it does. You're annoyed because you have a belief that what "I" am saying is contradictory to what the Bible says. To the contrary, scripture agrees with what I've had to say on this particular topic. Actually, it's likely rather the belief of your particular Church that you adhere to, a Church to which you have a loyalty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You are, however---wrong.
If I'm wrong, then all you have to do is to refute those Bible texts - as well as the teaching of Jesus and Paul - where 'death' is equated to 'sleep'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And, no, I do not intend to keep arguing about it.
I'm not interested in an argumentative discourse with you either but we should be able to argue in an academic/theological sense what the Bible has to say about the state of the dead. And, the Bible really DOES say that the dead are 'sleeping' in their graves right up until the time Jesus commands the graves to open. Nothing you or I say can change that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
After all is said and done, people go right on believing what they believe. I've too many other things to do to spend time going on about it. So, yes, I done with the thread.
That's alright ...I don't believe that anyone is twisting your arm to stay.
Last edited by RomulusXXV; 02-01-2020 at 10:13 PM..
Since "I" haven't died yet and nobody has ever returned from the dead to tell me of their after-death experience I can only go by what the Bible says about the state of the dead. And, that's all I've discussed here on this thread. So, why are you hitting out at me? Moreover, why are you avoiding any discussion on those VERY CLEAR scriptures that state UNEQUIVOCALLY that death equates to sleep? How can you be accusing me of making this up as long as you have the ability to read? It's silly.
As for your 'soul sleep' ...that's a false as well as a derogatory term that was made up by ignoramuses simply to vilify the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a denomination that simply believes what the Bible says about the state of the dead. NO SDA that I've ever known has ever used that term! "I" have never used that term because, as I say, it's a derogatory term made up by ignoramuses with which to to vilify the SDA Church. I don't want to lend myself to such stupidity which, unfortunately, abounds within mainstream Christianity.
Still, a 'soul' is not something mystical according to the Bible ...remember the Bible? It's 'the Bible' that is under discussion here. A 'soul' is simply a human being. The 'breath' is that something that is mysterious and that allows the soul to live and to develop a personality and a spiritual experience. At death, the soul dies a temporary death which the Bible equates to 'sleep'. The 'breath' (or 'spirit) returns to the one who initially gave it. I do believe that the Bible credits 'God' for this. At the resurrection it (the spirit) will once again be united with the resting body ('soul'). Yes, I realize that it all sounds pretty fanciful but this is something that you probably need to take up with the Bible authors - or even God - but certainly not me.
Of course it's just a metaphor. I don't believe that anyone has said otherwise.
I don't claim to know why Jesus said what He said or why He used words or terms that He allegedly did. Oftentimes Jesus' disciples didn't understand what Jesus said either. All I know is that the Bible consistently refers to the dead as 'sleeping', regardless of what "he said, she said." Okay?
He certainly DID believe that death equates to sleep! Shana has offered the appropriate 'Pauline' Bible passages a number of times without my having to do so again. Perhaps not for Paul, however, since he possibly believed that HE would still be alive at Jesus' coming so he would therefore not experience death. People WILL still be alive and going about their business when Jesus returns, you know that, don't you?
Whenever some scriptures appear to contradict other scriptures where a specific 'something' has already been established, Mike, then you have to read between the lines in order to UN-contradict them. As said, perhaps Paul believed that he would be among those still alive at Jesus' coming; however, he also knew that the graves of the (sleeping) dead would be opened and those 'asleep' within them would be 'awoken' (i.e. resurrected) to meet with Jesus in the air. Ever heard the song, I'll Fly Away ...? For crying out loud, Mike, you don't have to take my word for this ...just read your Bible!
I don't believe what I want. I'm just explaining what the Bible says. I haven't yet experienced death so I don't know what I 'personally' believe about it.
Clearly it does. You're annoyed because you have a belief that what "I" am saying is contradictory to what the Bible says. To the contrary, scripture agrees with what I've had to say on this particular topic. Actually, it's likely rather the belief of your particular Church that you adhere to, a Church to which you have a loyalty.
If I'm wrong, then all you have to do is to refute those Bible texts - as well as the teaching of Jesus and Paul - where 'death' is equated to 'sleep'.
I'm not interested in an argumentative discourse with you either but we should be able to argue in an academic/theological sense what the Bible has to say about the state of the dead. And, the Bible really DOES say that the dead are 'sleeping' in their graves right up until the time Jesus commands the graves to open. Nothing you or I say can change that.
That's alright ...I don't believe that anyone is twisting your arm to stay.
The state of death to the righteous is definitely a state of peace and rest, but not so for the spirits/minds of the wicked.
Isaiah 57: 1-2’ “Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they (GOOD PEOPLE) die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead Good Lives find peace and rest in death.”
So, if Good people find peace and rest in death, do you believe that those who lead wicked lives, also find peace and rest in death?
The penalty for sin is death, and all have sinned and all must die once then go off into Judgement where the spirits of the righteous, who have paid the blood price for their inherited sin, and any mistakes that they had made in their life on earth, are separated from the spirits of the wicked, and they enter into rest in the bosom of Abraham, assured of the resurrection (Over these, the second death has no power.) while the wicked, who reject the resurrection of the dead, and finding themselves still alive as disembodied spirits, after the first death which is that of the physical womb in which they the minds/spirits were formed, then await in fearful expectation, the great day of Judgement, as seen in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
And a human being is not a soul. A soul is one part of the triad life form who is a human being, of Body, Soul, and spirit.
You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered.
“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]
If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”
The man Jesus was the compilation of all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to the evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham, over who the second death had no power.
After being in the bowels of the earth, the inner spiritual dimension that co-exists within our three-dimensional world, for three days or three thousand years, he was reborn on earth as the man Jesus.
In John 14: 30; Jesus says to his apostles, “I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know that I love ‘THE’ Father, that is why I do everything as he commands me.
The state of death to the righteous is definitely a state of peace and rest, but not so for the spirits/minds of the wicked.
1 Peter 3: 18-20; "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits- 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."
That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.
Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.
Who were they who were disobedient in the days when Noah was building the Boat, and who had died in the flesh.
What about those who are not bound for 'the good place'? Will they still get a 'glorified body' and return from the grave?
I cannot imagine God allowing these 2 groups of people to exist together at the same time, and both be conscious.
I do believe that these people will also return from the grave and be immortal after the judgment, correction, the second death. But they will no longer be enemies of God, bound for the bad place. I believe this because of scriptures like Ephesians 1:9-12, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
1 Corinthians 15-28
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all
Ephesians 1: 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up* of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory...
summing up- anakephalaloomai- in the mid. voice, gathering together again, to reunite under one head, (Key Word Study Bible)
A 'soul' is simply a human being. The 'breath' is that something that is mysterious and that allows the soul to live and to develop a personality and a spiritual experience. At death, the soul dies a temporary death which the Bible equates to 'sleep'. The 'breath' (or 'spirit) returns to the one who initially gave it. I do believe that the Bible credits 'God' for this. At the resurrection it (the spirit) will once again be united with the resting body ('soul').
Agree, Romulus XXV. Do you agree with this illustration?
"An electric light serves as a good illustration of the difference between the body, the soul, and the spirit. Let the bulb and its filament, which is made from the elements out of the earth, represent the body. Let the electricity, an invisible force, represent the spirit. Let the light and heat produced by the union of the electricity with the bulb, represent the soul. When the connection is broken the light goes out. Out where? To the unseen or unperceived.
When God created man, He formed him out of the dust of the ground. He then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and as a result man became a living soul (Gen 2:7).
Death is a reversal of what happened in the creation. At death, the spirit (not the consciousness, but the force from God which when united with the body produces it) returns to God from whence it came. The soul (the sensation, the consciousness, the ego) dies. The body returns to the dust and the person is dead until resurrection." Joseph E. Kirk
The state of death to the righteous is definitely a state of peace and rest, but not so for the spirits/minds of the wicked.
Isaiah 57: 1-2’ “Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they (GOOD PEOPLE) die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead Good Lives find peace and rest in death.”
So, if Good people find peace and rest in death, do you believe that those who lead wicked lives, also find peace and rest in death?
The penalty for sin is death, and all have sinned and all must die once then go off into Judgement where the spirits of the righteous, who have paid the blood price for their inherited sin, and any mistakes that they had made in their life on earth, are separated from the spirits of the wicked, and they enter into rest in the bosom of Abraham, assured of the resurrection (Over these, the second death has no power.) while the wicked, who reject the resurrection of the dead, and finding themselves still alive as disembodied spirits, after the first death which is that of the physical womb in which they the minds/spirits were formed, then await in fearful expectation, the great day of Judgement, as seen in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
And a human being is not a soul. A soul is one part of the triad life form who is a human being, of Body, Soul, and spirit.
You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered.
“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]
If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”
The man Jesus was the compilation of all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to the evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham, over who the second death had no power.
After being in the bowels of the earth, the inner spiritual dimension that co-exists within our three-dimensional world, for three days or three thousand years, he was reborn on earth as the man Jesus.
In John 14: 30; Jesus says to his apostles, “I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know that I love ‘THE’ Father, that is why I do everything as he commands me.
The state of death to the righteous is definitely a state of peace and rest, but not so for the spirits/minds of the wicked.
1 Peter 3: 18-20; "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits- 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."
That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.
Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.
Who were they who were disobedient in the days when Noah was building the Boat, and who had died in the flesh.
Hope that helps you Romulus.
While I do appreciate the time and effort you put into the above post, Anointed, I don't think I need help in addressing the topic of the thread title. However, the contents of your post may be of benefit to others ...so, thanks.
Incidentally, if you didn't already know, the bolded part of your post is referring to the (gospel) message of Christ as preached by Noah to the people of his time ...the antediluvians ...who were living then (of course) but are NOW dead and WERE dead when that particular scripture (1 Peter 3:18-20) was written. Noah attempted to warn a sinful society that their wickedness would soon come back to bite them. But, they would not listen.
HOWEVER ...they were not dead when Noah relayed 'the Jesus message' to them!
Jesus did not personally preach to the dead in their graves. By today's standards 1 Peter 3:18-20 is poorly written and is confusing to the modern reader who may skim that scripture without understanding its meaning. However, all we need to know is that the dead know nothing once they are dead and therefore cannot be preached to ONCE they are dead. Like Jesus says in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), even should someone return from the dead and preach to the living 'the future consequences for the error of their ways' they would not be listened to. The time to do any preaching, should one choose to do so, is while people are living. Once they are dead it's too late.
Mark this down ...if the Bible appears to contradict itself, it's more likely the reader who is at fault.
Agree, Romulus XXV. Do you agree with this illustration?
"An electric light serves as a good illustration of the difference between the body, the soul, and the spirit. Let the bulb and its filament, which is made from the elements out of the earth, represent the body. Let the electricity, an invisible force, represent the spirit. Let the light and heat produced by the union of the electricity with the bulb, represent the soul. When the connection is broken the light goes out. Out where? To the unseen or unperceived.
When God created man, He formed him out of the dust of the ground. He then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and as a result man became a living soul (Gen 2:7).
Death is a reversal of what happened in the creation. At death, the spirit (not the consciousness, but the force from God which when united with the body produces it) returns to God from whence it came. The soul (the sensation, the consciousness, the ego) dies. The body returns to the dust and the person is dead until resurrection." Joseph E. Kirk
God bless.
Yes, I think it's a pretty good explanation and relatively easy to understand which is important since many people really do get confused over this topic. Thanks.
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I had a ten hour surgery and don't remember anything between drifting off to sleep and waking up! I don't believe that the soul sleeps but that Jesus calls it sleep because death is a temporary condition that we will be raised out of. Our bodies and our soul die, the soul having no more consciousness but it will return when the body is raised by the Lord. God bless.
