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You're right in saying that the vision in Rev. 7:9-14 was not something happening at the time. John was being shown a vision of a future event describing tribulational martyrs in heaven. I take that literally as I said. The people in Rev. 7:9-14 appear to be the same people who in Revelation 20:4 get resurrected.
Concerning your comment that ''if we are literally with Jesus when we die, then we have not really died. We have only transitioned from one place to another.'' I guess that depends on how you define physical death. I see physical death as the separation of the soul from the body ---with the soul and spirit going into the presence of the Lord in heaven.
I think that in Old Testament times, just as now, people had different views about things. While there are passages in the Old Testament which seem to imply that some may not have believed in life after death, it shouldn't be ignored that the Mosaic Law prohibited attempts to contact the dead. Nor should it be ignored that people did try to contact the dead thought the use of mediums. This means that many people did believe in some manner of life after death. I point again to King Saul who wanted a medium to contact the dead prophet Samuel (2 Samuel 28:7-20). And the text indicates that Samuel actually was brought up from Sheol. I believe that God is the one who actually caused Samuel to be brought up rather than the medium. God used Samuel to tell Saul that he was about to die.
Okay, I'll leave it at that. I know we'll continue to disagree. We all believe what we believe.
Hi Mike555, I believe that Sheol (Hades in the Greek) is the unseen state, meaning the state of the soul when it dies. The body dies, the soul ceases to exist. It is in the unseen state. I don't believe that there is consciousness, although some OT people may have believed this. When Samuel was brought up from Sheol, I believe that this means that he was brought out of the grave, his soul came back to life out of the unseen state. God bless.
Maybe I missed this is the responses, but I have not seen the passage what was shared in 1 Corinthians 15, addressed.
I shared that the apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
I believe that this is a key passage, that describes the necessity of the resurrection. Whatever we may believe the spirit of a man to person to be, it returns to God. (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And even as it returns to God, without the resurrection, we perish, according to this passage.
Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Also,
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
I use to believe like many believers do, that we go to be with Jesus consciously when we die. It is a comforting thought, but after further study, I realized that the resurrection is the key. This is why it was so important to the early Christians. Many did not believe that people could be brought back to life but believers believed that Jesus died, and was raised to life. Their hope was in this resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this [s]perishable must put on [t]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this [u]perishable will have put on [v]the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?â€
We become imperishable and immortal when we are raised and changed by the Lord. This is when death is swallowed up in victory. Up until the point, we remain under the power of death.
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14),
Jesus said:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
One thing to remember is that when we die, it is like sleep (or it is sleep as described in these scriptures). This is because it is only temporary. Also, I believe that when we die, we will not know that it we are dead. We will not be aware of it because our thoughts cease to exist.
" As this Biblical scholar shared: From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn’t come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.
Now I didn’t say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead." L.Ray Smith
But as a believer, I know that death is not permanent. Jesus will come again and raise me out of the grave, out of death, and I will no longer be under the power of death. It is a temporary condition.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-01-2020 at 06:54 AM..
I use to believe like many believers do, that we go to be with Jesus consciously when we die. It is a comforting thought, but after further study, I realized that the resurrection is the key. This is why it was so important to the early Christians. Many did not believe that people could be brought back to life but believers believed that Jesus died, and was raised to life. Their hope was in this resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this [s]perishable must put on [t]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this [u]perishable will have put on [v]the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?â€
We become imperishable and immortal when we are raised and changed by the Lord. This is when death is swallowed up in victory. Up until the point, we remain under the power of death.
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14),
Jesus said:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
One thing to remember is that when we die, it is like sleep (or it is sleep as described in these scriptures). This is because it is only temporary. Also, I believe that when we die, we will not know that it we are dead. We will not be aware of it because our thoughts cease to exist.
" As this Biblical scholar shared: From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn’t come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.
Now I didn’t say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead." L.Ray Smith
But as a believer, I know that death is not permanent. Jesus will come again and raise me out of the grave, and I will no longer be under the power of death. It is a temporary condition.
God bless.
God bless.
You are correct in believing that death is not permanent for those who believe in the resurrection, but Jesus ain't never gonna raise you or anyone else from the grave, according to the Holy Scriptures.
You are correct in believing that death is not permanent for those who believe in the resurrection, but Jesus ain't never gonna raise you or anyone else from the grave, according to the Holy Scriptures.
You are correct in believing that death is not permanent for those who believe in the resurrection, but Jesus ain't never gonna raise you or anyone else from the grave, according to the Holy Scriptures.
Okay, don't leave us hanging . . .where from the Holy Scriptures do you get this thought?
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
I believe that this is a key passage, that describes the necessity of the resurrection. Whatever we may believe the spirit of a man to person to be, it returns to God. (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And even as it returns to God, without the resurrection, we perish, according to this passage.
.
I meant to say that whatever we may believe the spirit of a man or person to be, it returns to God.(Ecclesiastes 12:7). And even as it returns to God, without the resurrection, we perish, according to this passage. God bless.
You also have to take into consideration, if we are truly 'asleep' after death until a certain time, when God raises everyone...it will FEEL instantaneous to us!!
Kind of like when they put you under to have surgery, it often feels like they put you out and then you awake almost immediately, you have NO recognition of the time in between (the time you were asleep/ unconscious). The surgery may have taken 5 hours, but to you, it feels like 2 minutes.
This is also similar to most of us when we go to bed every night, it surely doesnt feel like you have laid in bed for 7 or 8 hours, when that alarm goes off, it feels like I JUST fell asleep a minute ago.
Pulling out, eh, Mike? Why are you making me your adversary just because I don't agree with you?
As for 'soul sleep' ...what the heck IS soul sleep and where did I ever use that term? All I have said all along in this discussion is that the Bible authors - NOT "I" - consistently refer to death as 'sleep'. So did Jesus. So did Paul. This is not 'my view'. How can you dismiss this as long as you have the ability to read from the same book as I do? Unless you have selective vision (whatever the heck that is) I simply don't understand.
As for what is held by mainstream Christianity that might differ from my understanding of scripture that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY equates death to 'sleep', all I can say is that mainstream Christianity is wrong.
You know very well what the doctrine of soul sleep is. And since you apparently believe that the soul sleeps, you believe in soul sleep which is a doctrine that some denominations teach. And it's a false teaching.
Sleep is just a metaphor. Jesus clearly showed that the soul does not cease to exist when the body dies (Matthew 10:28). And in John's vision in Revelation 7 the multitude of people that he saw in heaven were quite awake. The soul of those who die, neither ceases to exist nor sleeps.
And concerning Paul, since he preferred to depart and be with the Lord, he obviously did not think that he was going to be unconscious in death.
But believe what you want. It doesn't affect me. You are, however---wrong. And, no, I do not intend to keep arguing about it. After all is said and done, people go right on believing what they believe. I've too many other things to do to spend time going on about it. So, yes, I done with the thread.
You also have to take into consideration, if we are truly 'asleep' after death until a certain time, when God raises everyone...it will FEEL instantaneous to us!!
Kind of like when they put you under to have surgery, it often feels like they put you out and then you awake almost immediately, you have NO recognition of the time in between (the time you were asleep/ unconscious). The surgery may have taken 5 hours, but to you, it feels like 2 minutes.
This is also similar to most of us when we go to bed every night, it surely doesnt feel like you have laid in bed for 7 or 8 hours, when that alarm goes off, it feels like I JUST fell asleep a minute ago.
Yes, rstevens62 I had a ten hour surgery and don't remember anything between drifting off to sleep and waking up! I don't believe that the soul sleeps but that Jesus calls it sleep because death is a temporary condition that we will be raised out of. Our bodies and our soul die, the soul having no more consciousness but it will return when the body is raised by the Lord. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-01-2020 at 10:34 AM..
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I had a ten hour surgery and don't remember anything between drifting off to sleep and waking up! I don't believe that the soul sleeps but that Jesus calls it sleep because death is a temporary condition that we will be raised out of. Our bodies and our soul die, the soul having no more consciousness but it will return when the body is raised by the Lord. God bless.
