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The wicked are Not considered to be in tombs but as ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7
This is why Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28 and does Not say all.
According to Jesus, Matthew 4:4, all are in the tombs and yes Jesus died for all people.
John 5 5 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
1 Timothy 2: First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [a]authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and [b]dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [d]given at [e]the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a [f]preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 John 4:14: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
Shortly after the man Jesus had been filled with the spirit of our Lord God and savior, [The Son of Man] he said to Nicodemus, "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: even the Son of Man."
Enoch was the only man in your bible to have ascended to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his heir and successor, and was translated (To change on form to another) in order that he should never have to experience death.
Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.
Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.
365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a oneyear old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the ANOINTED one, who was taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation at the age of 365 is the unblemished Lamb of God.
Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.
Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" (Duplication) of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.
Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light.
Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" (The Son of God) resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.
It was to Abraham, that the MOST HIGH in the creation, [The lesser Jahweh the Son of God] said; "In blessing I will bless you and in multiplying, I will multiply you." Our Saviour who offers up his immortal body for those who believe, multiplies by releasing the spirits on which he had evolved.
And it was to Moses that our savior the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.
The reason that people believe that Jesus was 'The Son of Man,' is because of the words he spoke, but they were not his words, were they?
If Jesus told the repentant thief who was hanging next to Him on the cross that He'd see him that same day in Paradise, and if our spirit ceases to be conscious when we did, what did Jesus tell him that for?
If Jesus told the repentant thief who was hanging next to Him on the cross that He'd see him that same day in Paradise, and if our spirit ceases to be conscious when we did, what did Jesus tell him that for?
It appears he was making reference to a future time, when all will be resurrected.
If Jesus told the repentant thief who was hanging next to Him on the cross that He'd see him that same day in Paradise, and if our spirit ceases to be conscious when we did, what did Jesus tell him that for?
It's a good question. And Jesus WAS saying ''Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise,'' as opposed to ''Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise.'' Notice the difference in the comma placement.
In the Greek of Jesus' day punctuation wasn't used. But people who believe in 'soul sleep' insist on sticking a comma in there, just where they want it to be in order to make Jesus' statement fit their theology.
But, with the exception of Luke 23:43, in none of Jesus' many statements where he starts off with either, 'Truly', or with 'Truly, truly I say to you,' does he ever say, 'Truly, I say to you today' and then proceed to make his statement. It's always, 'Truly, I say to you.'
So why then would Jesus suddenly change his style and say, 'Truly I say to you today?' It's extremely unlikely. Besides, it would be redundant to say, 'Truly I say to you today.' Of course he was saying it to the repentant thief that day. He wasn't saying it to him next week.
If Jesus told the repentant thief who was hanging next to Him on the cross that He'd see him that same day in Paradise, and if our spirit ceases to be conscious when we did, what did Jesus tell him that for?
I’m not sure that the intent was to say anything about where the dead are upon literal death
The statement before was Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom, and the reply to that was this Day you will be with me in paradise
The focus is the kingdom not the grave and relates to this concept of already being able to see the kingdom by faith
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
Many Biblical scholars agree that the comma is to be placed to read "Verily, verily I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise. Some scholars say that it is , "Verily, verily, I say to you, this day (meaning the day that He comes into His Kingdom, you will be with me in Paradise.
The Problem of Punctuation;
"The grammatical aspects of the Greek text allow for placing a comma (or, colon) either before or after "today."But how did the writer Luke punctuate the sentence? The truth is, he did not! Professor Oscar Paret explains that the form of Greek script in which the New Testament was written "is composed solely of capital letters . . . loosely set next to one another without any punctuation to separate words and sentences. Greek literature used this script down to the 9th century C.E." Thus in translating Jesus' statement W. G. Ballantine, a professor of Hebrew and Greek, did not insert punctuation: "I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise."-The Riverside New Testament. Some have contended, however, that the expression "I tell you truly" or "Truly I tell you" does not allow for adding the word "today" to it. Is that true? Note what Dr. George Lamsa* writes:"According to the Aramaic manner of speech, the emphasis in this text is on the word "today" and should read [as it does in the New World Translation], "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.". . . This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept".- Gospel Light from Aramaic on the Teachings of Jesus. The Hebrew Scriptures themselves provide numerous examples of this solemn idiom using "today".- Zech. 9:12; Deut. 4:26, 39, and 40 other instances in the book of Deuteronomy alone.http://onlytruegod.org/defense/luke23.43.htm
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-04-2020 at 01:33 PM..
I have read in many sources, that the passages that refer to Enoch and Elijah do not refer to them being transported to heaven to be with Jesus.
Reference Notes:
Enoch and Elijah, and their apparent disappearance, mystifies many readers of God's word. Some believe they are evidence proving those who die righteously will go to heaven. So, what does the Bible really say happened to these two men?
Although the prophet Elijah is referenced 69 times in the KJV Bible, only two places discuss Enoch by name, Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5. Concerning the reference in Genesis, various translations state that he walked with God and that he took him (KJV, NKJV, NIV, HCSB, and NRSV). The NAB says he "was no longer here."
The NLB, Moffet, and TEV translations state the Enoch "disappeared." For the reference in Hebrews 11:5, several translations state that because of his faith he was taken and 'did not see death' because the Eternal took him away.
By faith Enoch was transported so that he would not look upon death, and was not found because God had transported him; for before his departure it was testified of him that he pleased God (Hebrews 11:5, HBFV).
In these references, you will not find a single mention of heaven or that God miraculously whisked anyone Elijah, Enoch, or anyone else to receive their eternal reward ahead of everyone else. The Greek word in Hebrews 11 from which the phrase "was taken" is derived (the King James Bible uses the word "translated") is Strong's Concordance #G3346. This word, in the Greek, means to transport or transfer a person.
The gospel of John records for us Jesus' statement to Nicodemus that not a single person has gone to where God's throne exists except the Son of Man. The Lord told him, "no one has ascended into heaven (this includes Elijah and Enoch!), except He Who came down from heaven, even the Son of man . . ." (John 3:13, HBFV)
The apostle Peter reiterates this point in Acts 2:29 and 34 when, preaching to a large crowd of people on the day of Pentecost, he proclaimed that King David was not only dead (and his body was still in its tomb) but that he had not gone to heaven! The only one resurrected, again according to Peter, was Christ!
What happened, however, to the prophet? We find out answer in the second chapter of 2Kings.
Elijah and Elisha set out from Gilgal . . . then suddenly a chariot of fire pulled by horses of fire came between them, and Elijah was taken up to heaven by a whirlwind (2Kings 2:1, 11)
The word translated as 'heaven' in 2Kings 2 comes from the Hebrew shamayim (Strong's Concordance Number #H8064). Shamayim, plural of the original language word shameh, means the sky above us or the arch we see clouds moving in around the earth. It is decidedly not in reference to the 'heaven' we commonly think of when we refer to where the throne of God exists.
When Christ and the apostle Peter state that not one human being is now in heaven, they are referencing the location of God's throne, which is the center of the entire universe.
When the book of Hebrews says Enoch was "translated" or "taken" (the same thing which occurred to Elijah), it is not stating that the Eternal somehow took him 'early' because of his righteousness to receive his eternal award ahead of countless people who also deserve eternal life. He traveled within what we today call the sky to another location on planet earth.
The Lord, in His wisdom, decided to transport Enoch and Elijah away from where they were originally located so that someone (or something) would not be able to physically kill or murder them at that particular time. Elijah the prophet and righteous Enoch did not go to heaven, but continued to live the same kind of fleshly existence we do after they moved until they died. This is in agreement with other scriptures that state all men must die a physical death (Hebrews 9:27). Bible Study.org
This corresponds with these scriptures:
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
No person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
It appears he was making reference to a future time, when all will be resurrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It's a good question. And Jesus WAS saying ''Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise,'' as opposed to ''Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise.'' Notice the difference in the comma placement.
In the Greek of Jesus' day punctuation wasn't used. But people who believe in 'soul sleep' insist on sticking a comma in there, just where they want it to be in order to make Jesus' statement fit their theology.
But, with the exception of Luke 23:43, in none of Jesus' many statements where he starts off with either, 'Truly', or with 'Truly, truly I say to you,' does he ever say, 'Truly, I say to you today' and then proceed to make his statement. It's always, 'Truly, I say to you.'
So why then would Jesus suddenly change his style and say, 'Truly I say to you today?' It's extremely unlikely. Besides, it would be redundant to say, 'Truly I say to you today.' Of course he was saying it to the repentant thief that day. He wasn't saying it to him next week.
Well, I know that the JWs, for instance, think translators just put the comma in the wrong place, changing the meaning of the sentence, but I personally believe that He was saying, "Today, shalt thou be with me in Paradise," and that He meant precisely what He said. I believe that both Jesus and the thief He was directing His remarks to saw one another in Paradise later that day (i.e. the same day they both died). I don't believe that place was "Heaven," though since Jesus told Mary on Easter morning not to touch Him since He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. I don't see any need to suggest that He probably meant something different than what He plainly stated.
Last edited by Katzpur; 02-04-2020 at 01:59 PM..
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