The State of Those Who Have Died (believer, pray, priests)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
While I do appreciate the time and effort you put into the above post, Anointed, I don't think I need help in addressing the topic of the thread title. However, the contents of your post may be of benefit to others ...so, thanks.
Incidentally, if you didn't already know, the bolded part of your post is referring to the (gospel) message of Christ as preached by Noah to the people of his time ...the antediluvians ...who were living then (of course) but are NOW dead and WERE dead when that particular scripture (1 Peter 3:18-20) was written. Noah attempted to warn a sinful society that their wickedness would soon come back to bite them. But, they would not listen.
HOWEVER ...they were not dead when Noah relayed 'the Jesus message' to them!
Jesus did not personally preach to the dead in their graves. By today's standards 1 Peter 3:18-20 is poorly written and is confusing to the modern reader who may skim that scripture without understanding its meaning. However, all we need to know is that the dead know nothing once they are dead and therefore cannot be preached to ONCE they are dead. Like Jesus says in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), even should someone return from the dead and preach to the living 'the future consequences for the error of their ways' they would not be listened to. The time to do any preaching, should one choose to do so, is while people are living. Once they are dead it's too late.
Mark this down ...if the Bible appears to contradict itself, it's more likely the reader who is at fault.
There is no need to preach to the righteous dead, for, they rest in peaceful sleep in Christ, as they await the resurrection, but the unrighteous dead, suffering terrible mental torment, as spoken of by Jesus in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man, were definitely in need of the Good News.
The only place that I have read in the bible that the dead know nothing, is in the Satirical work of Solomon, 'The Book of Ecclesiastes, which was aimed at those who refused to accept life after death and the resurrection of the dead, as did the Sadducees.
If these people were truly in a kind of 'deep sleep'...how then would it be possible for living people to contact them?*
*Keep in mind that Jesus warned against people doing this, (that implies that it IS POSSIBLE though), if contact was not possible in the first place, there would be no need to warn people about it.
I came across a very good discussion on the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. I have read in many sources that this story originated with a popular story that the Jews were familiar with and that Jesus took this popular story to teach and make some important points. But before I share the article, here are scriptures which speak of the state of the dead:
Psalms 6:5
“For in death there is no remembrance of you: in the grave (Hebrew: Sheol, Hades in Septuagint) who will give you thanks?”
Psalms 31:17
“let them be silent in the grave (Hebrew: Sheol, Hades in Septuagint)”.
Psalms 115:17
“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor any who go down into silence. [Septuagint: go down into Hades i.e. Hades = silence]”
Psalms 30:9
“What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it declare your truth? ”
Isaiah 38:18-19
“For the grave [Sheol] cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do this day: the father shall make known your truth to the children. ” (NKJV-KJV)
On the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus: (caps from the article)
Luke 16:22
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom”
Once again this sentence contains strange references, unprecedented in the Bible. Indeed, there is no other Biblical reference to “Abraham’s bosom” and to angels bringing people there. There are as we said more than 70 occurrences of the words Sheol and Hades in the Bible that define Hades, literally the grave, as the place that all dead – without distinction – go. But we never read of an “Abraham’s bosom” there, nor do we read that the poor or the just go to a different place than the rich or the unjust. Why is Jesus making such references that have no parallel in the Scripture and in fact contradict it in many points?
The answer can be found by going back to the context: to whom was Jesus addressing this story? As we saw this was not intended to be a general teaching on the dead but it was addressed specifically to the Pharisees that scorned him because he was teaching that there is no way to work both God and money. This audience we read were “lovers of money”, “covetous” and they “were justifying themselves among men”. The Pharisees had, as we can read in other places in the Scripture, traditions that didn’t have anything to do with the Word of God. They believed things that were foreign to Scripture and made the Word of God of no effect. Mark 7:1-13 give us some insight on how far from the Bible this sect was:
Mark 7:1-13
“Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash theirhands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honours Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men––the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. "For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ "But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" ––’(that is, a gift to God), "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."”
The last phrase “and many such things you do” shows that the above were not the only instances where the Pharisees were clearly deviating from Scripture. In fact, as it happens many times today, they had replaced the Word of God with their traditions. In fact, as it happens many times today, they had replaced the Word of God with their traditions. Their teaching were not teachings coming from the Scripture but traditions with no base on the Bible and in fact traditions that were blatantly contradicting the Bible. Now why do I say all these things about the Pharisees? The reason is simple: because though the “bosom of Abraham” and the other strange things that appear in the rich man and Lazarus story do not appear anywhere else in the Bible, and in fact contradict other references in the Bible, they do appear in the traditions the Pharisees believed.
Here is what the Catholic encyclopedia tells us about the beliefs of the Jews of the 1st century (emphasis added):
“In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments … -- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" and "the Bosom of Abraham" ”
See in the above the emphasis to the “Jewish conceptions of that day”. We are not speaking here about Scripture based traditions that originate from God but “traditions of that day”, “popular representations of the unseen world”. The Bosom of Abraham, the just being in it, the angels bringing them there, the punishment of the unjust, the chaos between these two places and the other points we read above as the view of the Pharisees, have no parallel in any other part of the Scripture except the story of the rich man and the Lazarus. In other words: WHAT THE LORD USED IN THIS STORY, SPEAKING TO THE PHARISEES, WAS WHAT THE PHARISSES THEMSELVES BELIEVED TO BE HAPPENING AFTER DEATH."http://www.jba.gr/Articles/jbajan07a.htm
I don’t believe the scriptures are talking about our individual, literal deaths though
Let the “dead” bury the “dead” how is that talking about literal death?
The “dead” are those in religious “sin” or “error” that do not hold on to the TRUTH and use religion to build up “shrines” and “temples” to “dead men” of “gods” ie any/all spiritual nation, tribe, family, denominations that have some correct doctrines but also believe other stuff as well (which we all are or have been a part of because ALL have erred) it is a part of our religious nature
The problem is misunderstanding what the scriptures, they are religious documents relating to spiritual things, not physical, literal things
I don’t believe the scriptures are talking about our individual, literal deaths though
Let the “dead” bury the “dead” how is that talking about literal death?
The “dead” are those in religious “sin” or “error” that do not hold on to the TRUTH and use religion to build up “shrines” and “temples” to “dead men” of “gods” ie any/all spiritual nation, tribe, family, denominations that have some correct doctrines but also believe other stuff as well (which we all are or have been a part of because ALL have erred) it is a part of our religious nature
The problem is misunderstanding what the scriptures, they are religious documents relating to spiritual things, not physical, literal things
My kingdom is not of this world says Jesus
Right, the kingdom is Not of this world because it is a heavenly kingdom. ( Located in Heaven )
The ' seat of government ' is now Jerusalem ' above ' as per Galatians 4:26
This is why we are to pray for God's Kingdom to come ( thy kingdom come )
And the reason why we are all invited to pray for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
The Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) to come and bring an end to earth's corrupted governments.
If the man's father was already dead that man would Not have been there speaking with Jesus but burying his dead father.
So, Jesus words were Not about literal death, but for those like that man being 'spiritually dead '.
Plus, all of Jesus' parable illustrative stories were Not literal.
What was literal was what is written at John 11:11-14 that the literal dead are sleeping (R.I.P.)
Jesus knew the sleeping condition of the dead from the old Hebrew Scriptures which teach sleep in death.
- For example: Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
There is no need to preach to the righteous dead, for, they rest in peaceful sleep in Christ, as they await the resurrection, but the unrighteous dead, suffering terrible mental torment, as spoken of by Jesus in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man, were definitely in need of the Good News.
The only place that I have read in the bible that the dead know nothing, is in the Satirical work of Solomon, 'The Book of Ecclesiastes, which was aimed at those who refused to accept life after death and the resurrection of the dead, as did the Sadducees.
Yipes! I do wonder where you read that the unrighteous dead suffer terrible mental torment_____________
The parable of the un-named rich man and Lazarus is a parable illustration story, Not literal.- Matthew 13:34; Mark 4:34.
What is literal, is real, is what Jesus said at John 11:11-14 that the dead sleep.
There will be a resurrection (the conscious do Not need a resurrection) of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts 24:15.
I find it is those of Matthew 12:32 that have No resurrection, and the WICKED are the destroyed forever ones - Psalm 92:7
The wicked are the ones who will never have a resurrection.
Seems to me that King Solomon was known for having God-given wisdom according to 1st Kings 3:16-28.
What Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead know nothing is in harmony with Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17.
Just as when we are in a deep sleep we are Not even aware of the passing of time, so it is with all the dead.
Also, Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection of the just and unjust.
That future resurrection takes place on Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth.
If these people were truly in a kind of 'deep sleep'...how then would it be possible for living people to contact them?*
*Keep in mind that Jesus warned against people doing this, (that implies that it IS POSSIBLE though), if contact was not possible in the first place, there would be no need to warn people about it.
Very interesting thought ^ above ^ and in Scripture we find that someone who contacts who they think is dead is really contacting the demons.
Even Satan transforms himself as an angel of light, and sinner Satan is as dark as it gets.
So, as Not to come under demonic influence, we are Not to try to contact the dead - Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Lev. 19:26.
Thus, Jesus' need to warn people is so that they do Not come under demonic influences.- Rev. 12:12,9
What about those who are not bound for 'the good place'? Will they still get a 'glorified body' and return from the grave?
I cannot imagine God allowing these 2 groups of people to exist together at the same time, and both be conscious.
Since the Wicked are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalm 92:7 they are bound for extinction.
It is the living who are the ones who are conscious, conscious they will die - Ecclesiastes 9:5 A.
If we don't want to ' perish ' (<-Meaning be destroyed) we need to ' repent ' as per 2nd Peter 3:9.
As Adam was created with a perfectly healthy body, so will those who will have an earthly resurrection - Acts 24:15.
Some people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 have a first or earlier heavenly resurrection - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
Whereas, the majority (John 3:13 those who died before Jesus died ) can have an earthly resurrection.- Acts 2:34.
I don’t believe the scriptures are talking about our individual, literal deaths though
Let the “dead” bury the “dead” how is that talking about literal death?
The “dead” are those in religious “sin” or “error” that do not hold on to the TRUTH and use religion to build up “shrines” and “temples” to “dead men” of “gods” ie any/all spiritual nation, tribe, family, denominations that have some correct doctrines but also believe other stuff as well (which we all are or have been a part of because ALL have erred) it is a part of our religious nature
The problem is misunderstanding what the scriptures, they are religious documents relating to spiritual things, not physical, literal things
My kingdom is not of this world says Jesus
Meerkat, some of the scriptures talk about spiritual death and some talk about literal death. Jesus literally died and was buried. Christianity is founded on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus promised that those who are in the graves will be resurrected. It is a literal resurrection of the dead.
Acts 1: 1 The first account I [a]composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had [b]by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To [c]these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 2 Peter speaks:
2 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man [r]attested to you by God with [s]miracles and wonders and [t]signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [u]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [v]But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [w]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [x]in its power. 25 For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26
‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27
Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor [y]allow Your [z]Holy One to [aa]undergo decay.
28
‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
29 “[ab]Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is [ac]with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ad]of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of [ae]the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh [af]suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted [ag]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into [ah]heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and [ai]Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
1 Corinthians 15:3-5 ESV / 3 helpful votes
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1 Corinthians 15:1-58 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ...
Scriptures on the coming literal resurrection of dead people:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ESV
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...
Colossians 1:18 ESV
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
1 Corinthians 15:20 ESV
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
Romans 6:5 ESV
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a
resurrection like his.
To my knowledge, no one has addressed these passages.
"
I shared that the apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
I believe that this is a key passage, that describes the necessity of the resurrection. Whatever we may believe the spirit of a man to person to be, it returns to God. (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And even as it returns to God, without the resurrection, we perish, according to this passage.
Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Also,
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
