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Alright ...you need to tell us more than just, 'No, it's not what he is saying'. What IS Paul saying if not for what we can read for ourselves? The way I read all of these relevant scriptures to the topic is that the dead actually become lifeless (who'd have thought?) when they die. If they were not lifeless they would not be dead. The life force that made them a 'living being' in the first place will be returned to the deceased person at the resurrection. I have no idea how all of this will be performed, only that we are told that this IS how it will be done. If I did know I'd be on TV fooling Penn and Teller.
There will also be people who never experience death, i.e. they will be alive and going about their business at the time of Jesus' return. Unless you have a different explanation, JohnD, Paul also appears to mention this in the above passage of scripture.
You know, the 'sensible' thing about this (apparent) divine system is that the long dead and the present living will receive immortality at the same time. No one will receive special treatment such as having been in heaven for a couple of thousand years before someone else. No, I have no idea how it works but it does seem like a pretty good plan.
* Just for interest sake, Lazarus, the friend of Jesus had been dead for four days. There is no mention that Jesus brought Lazarus out of Paradise, down from Heaven or up from Hell. You see, Lazarus was dead or 'sleeping' as Jesus said. Lazarus didn't go anywhere.
For any of you here who find the teachings of the early Christian fathers to be of interest, here's what some of them had to say on the subject:
Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 5, as referenced by J.G. Davies): The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment.
Irenaeus (Against Heresies): For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arise in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples, also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event.
Tertullian (On the Soul): Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison of lodging, in the fire or in Abraham's bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality.... All souls, therefore, are shut with within Hades: Do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no... Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory?... What, then is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep.
Origen (De Principiis): Those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts -- according as they shall be deemed worthy -- some in the place which is called "hell," others in the bosom of Abraham, and is different localities or mansions.
I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place... which the holy Scripture call paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room of school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future.
Many of these men, and others, also taught that there would definitely be an end to the torments of the spirit prison and that those who suffered there could still be redeemed.
For any of you here who find the teachings of the early Christian fathers to be of interest, here's what some of them had to say on the subject:
Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 5, as referenced by J.G. Davies): The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment.
Irenaeus (Against Heresies): For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arise in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples, also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event.
Tertullian (On the Soul): Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison of lodging, in the fire or in Abraham's bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality.... All souls, therefore, are shut with within Hades: Do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no... Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory?... What, then is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep.
Origen (De Principiis): Those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts -- according as they shall be deemed worthy -- some in the place which is called "hell," others in the bosom of Abraham, and is different localities or mansions.
I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place... which the holy Scripture call paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room of school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future.
Many of these men, and others, also taught that there would definitely be an end to the torments of the spirit prison and that those who suffered there could still be redeemed.
Katzpur, the early church Fathers were intelligent, intellectual people who were taking the prophetic things in the scriptures and were discussing various writings they had religiously inherited from their predecessors
They were the inheritors of the Hebrew, Greek, Roman writings
Plato, Cicero etc need to be brought into the mix as those were where their/our ideas about all these concepts come from and you can see the wording of “an in†and “so to speak†which is saying that there is allegory and symbol at play
The underworld of hell is a theme, which was fervently embraced in the medieval world through earlier cultures. And that theme was gradually adopted into Christianity over time, as well as within that of a few other mainline religions. But it has no basis in reality, other than a literary work on the table of human compilation to explain why there is "good and evil" in this world. It is within the human nature itself to do either, under the mechanism of one's own survival, as most fear the thought of death or that of taking their last breath. Therefore, we have the tendency to compartmentalize things, comparing and contrasting them within our minds in order to overcome that of our own frailties; and the thought of dying.
Yes, and some of the church fathers were influenced by Greek philosophy and thought. Plato was one of the main influencers. If you compare some of the teachings with what is presented in the scriptures, there are contradictions.
Death is the cessation of life. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-06-2020 at 06:38 PM..
I believe that many of us don't want to think of ourselves as being in a state of death. It is not something we like to think of but this is why the resurrection is so important and necessary. This is where victory over death, the last enemy, will be manifested. Jesus is the only One who has immortality right now, according to the scriptures. He is the firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-06-2020 at 06:53 PM..
Many of the church fathers were influenced by Greek philosophy and thought. Plato was one of the main influencers. If you compare some of the teachings with what is presented in the scriptures, there are contradictions.
Death is the cessation of life. God bless.
Yes, death is the cessation of life. On the other hand, when the spirit is infused into a physical body, there is life. So when the spirit leaves the body, there is death. That doesn't mean that the spirit dies. The body was not alive before the spirit entered into it and it is not alive when the spirit leaves it.
Shana, I'm curious as to what you believe with respect to John 3:16, which states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What happens to those who don't believe in Him, for the simple reason that they may have never even have heard of Him?
Katzpur, the early church Fathers were intelligent, intellectual people who were taking the prophetic things in the scriptures and were discussing various writings they had religiously inherited from their predecessors
They were the inheritors of the Hebrew, Greek, Roman writings
Plato, Cicero etc need to be brought into the mix as those were where their/our ideas about all these concepts come from and you can see the wording of “an in†and “so to speak†which is saying that there is allegory and symbol at play
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
The underworld of hell is a theme, which was fervently embraced in the medieval world through earlier cultures. And that theme was gradually adopted into Christianity over time, as well as within that of a few other mainline religions. But it has no basis in reality, other than a literary work on the table of human compilation to explain why there is "good and evil" in this world. It is within the human nature itself to do either, under the mechanism of one's own survival, as most fear the thought of death or that of taking their last breath. Therefore, we have the tendency to compartmentalize things, comparing and contrasting them within our minds in order to overcome that of our own frailties; and the thought of dying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Yes, and some of the church fathers were influenced by Greek philosophy and thought. Plato was one of the main influencers. If you compare some of the teachings with what is presented in the scriptures, there are contradictions.
Trust me... I would be the first to concede that the post-apostolic Christian leaders were heavily influenced by Greek philosophical thought. It is this philosophy that I believe was responsible for the concept of God we see in the Nicene and especially the Athanasian Creeds.
Meerkat: Why do you believe Origen's words were allegorical? I don't think it was an allegory at all.
I suspect that he was simply trying to describe the conditions that existed in the Spirit World by making a comparison to something he knew his audience would already understand, i.e. "a place of instruction."
Jerwade: As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe the Spirit World is in the bowels of the earth, but I do believe it existed in Christ's day and continues to exist today. There is a purpose for it, and it's not to explain why there is good and evil, but as a place of continued instruction concerning what God expects of us. Remember, when Adam and Eve got cast out of the Garden of Eden, God said they had "become of us, to know good and evil." Despite the fact that they had looked for a unauthorized shortcut to gaining that knowledge, I believe God does want us to learn to discern between good and evil. There are billions who have lived and died who never really had that opportunity. A "place of instruction" would level the playing field prior to the Final Judgment and does not run counter to anything the Bible teaches.
Shana: Which scriptures do the teachings of the men I quoted contradict?
Yes, death is the cessation of life. On the other hand, when the spirit is infused into a physical body, there is life. So when the spirit leaves the body, there is death. That doesn't mean that the spirit dies. The body was not alive before the spirit entered into it and it is not alive when the spirit leaves it.
Shana, I'm curious as to what you believe with respect to John 3:16, which states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What happens to those who don't believe in Him, for the simple reason that they may have never even have heard of Him?
Yes, agree, with you Katzpur, that when the spirit leaves the body, there is death. But we disagree in that I think that you believe that the spirit is conscious and I believe that it isn't. I believe that is the breath of life that comes from God. When God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, he became a living creature. Without that breath of life, he is no longer living. Here is one reason why I don't believe that it is conscious. It is because the apostle Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we perish. This means that even though our spirit (the breath of life) returns to God, we perish without the resurrection.
John 3: 16 Young's Literal
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
I believe that this refers to having life during the ages, Katzpur. It is the life of knowing God and Jesus, aionos life. Many do not have this life now and now and they are lost and many will not have life in the next age and they will suffer loss and destruction. Many will have life in the next age and will rule and reign with Jesus in His kingdom. In the end, all people will be made subject to Jesus and they will all be restored to God through Him. 1 Corinthians 15. All will eventually believe and they be reunited in Him. Ephesians 1. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-06-2020 at 07:12 PM..
Yes, agree, with you Katzpur, that when the spirit leaves the body, there is death. But we disagree in that I think that you believe that the spirit is conscious and I believe that it isn't. I believe that is the breath of life that comes from God. When God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, he became a living creature. Without that breath of life, he is no longer living. Here is one reason why I don't believe that it is conscious. It is because the apostle Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we perish. This means that even though our spirit (the breath of life) returns to God, we perish without the resurrection.
Oh, I totally agree with that. Without the resurrection, we would continue to be forever dead. I don't think it would really make a difference whether the spirit was conscious or unconscious after death. If it was conscious, it could re-enter a body and return that body to a state of being life. If it was unconscious for a period of time, it could also again become conscious and return that body to a state of being alive. What I wonder, is what need would God have of having a bunch of dead spirits with Him during the period of time between death and the resurrection. Jesus commended His spirit into His Father's hands just before He died. If both the body and the spirit died, what would be the point of their being separated at death?
Quote:
I believe that this refers to having life during the ages, Katzpur. It is the life of knowing God and Jesus, aionos life. Many do not have this life now and now and they are lost and many will not have life in the next age and they will suffer loss and destruction. Many will have life in the next age and will rule and reign with Jesus in His kingdom. In the end, all people will be made subject to Jesus and they will all be restored to God through Him. 1 Corinthians 15. All will eventually believe and they be reunited in Him. Ephesians 1. God bless.
I guess I'm wondering how you believe all of this is going to happen. How are people who have never even heard of Jesus going to "eventually believe and be reunited in Him." I'm thinking of people who lived in China or parts of Africa, for instance, long before Christianity ever spread to those areas. How does Buddhism or some tribal religion take the place of a knowledge of Jesus Christ and His gospel?
(P.S. Your post that I'm responding to, Shana, is a good example of why so many people on this forum hold you in such high regard. You are able to do what so many seem incapable of doing, i.e. expressing your strongly held beliefs without trashing other people's.)
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