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I find those like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 are the ones united with Jesus in a death like his.....
Thus, they will have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
They will govern with Jesus over Earth.
Govern as kings under Christ to take care of governmental responsibilities of people living on Earth.
Also, act as priests under Christ to take care of spiritual duties towards the people living on Earth.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
First of all, I find putting faith in Jesus is essential to gaining heavenly life.
No one who died before Jesus (John 3:13) is called to heavenly life.
They never had an opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
Thus, their resurrection will be a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
This is why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be' a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.
Those of 1st Cor. 15:1 addressed to Jesus ' spiritual ' brothers ' are the ones called to heavenly life.
These ' brothers ' are the first fruits (vs 20,23) and have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
These 'brothers ' are considered as saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18 and are like those people of Luke 22:28-30.
Before the last War (Armageddon - Psalm 46:9) these 'brothers' are the ones of 1st Cor. 15:51-54.
For the rest of resurrected mankind, their future earthly resurrection takes place during Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Resurrection Day is Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth when people like David will be resurrected back to human life on Earth - Acts 2:34
- David who will then be a Prince on Earth - Ezekiel 34:24.
Shana's statement: Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead. We have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
First of all, I find putting faith in Jesus is essential to gaining heavenly life.
No one who died before Jesus (John 3:13) is called to heavenly life.
They never had an opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
Thus, their resurrection will be a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
This is why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be' a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.
Those of 1st Cor. 15:1 addressed to Jesus ' spiritual ' brothers ' are the ones called to heavenly life.
These ' brothers ' are the first fruits (vs 20,23) and have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
These 'brothers ' are considered as saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18 and are like those people of Luke 22:28-30.
Before the last War (Armageddon - Psalm 46:9) these 'brothers' are the ones of 1st Cor. 15:51-54.
For the rest of resurrected mankind, their future earthly resurrection takes place during Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Resurrection Day is Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth when people like David will be resurrected back to human life on Earth - Acts 2:34
- David who will then be a Prince on Earth - Ezekiel 34:24.
The point that I am making, Matthew:4:4 is that without the resurrection, we perish. 1 Corinthians 15. The resurrection is essential to our being made alive. This means that no one goes straight to be with Jesus when they die. They are in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
The resurrection is necessary for them to be living with Jesus always. When they are raised, then they will be with the Lord consciously and they will be with Him always. .
Also, Jesus is the only one who has immortality now. No believer is currently living with Jesus in heaven forever. He dwells in unapproachable light that no one can see.
So I am sharing that we are in the graves, dead literally, until we are resurrected by God. Then and only then will we literally be with the Lord always.
I use to believe that we go straight to heaven consciously when we die, but then I realized that this was a denial of death and it diminishes the power of the resurrection.
It takes away from its power and the glory that God will be manifested when He raises all out of the grave.
Death is described as an enemy. It is not the enemy if we are already living in heaven with Jesus.
Death, the last enemy, will truly be defeated, abolished, made of no effect. (1 Corinthians 15: 26)
Notes from Biblical Scholar, A.E. Knoch
If the dead are consciously alive then they are not dead at all and both the need and possibility of resurrection is unthinkable...
For if it should be established that the dead are alive this would also prove that they are not dead. This leads to the bold denial of death:
"There is no death
What seems so is transition."
And this reminds us of Eden's garden where the "mother of all the living" is told, "Ye shall not surely die..."
To make alive that which already has life should not call forth much effort. Yet resurrection is set forth as the mightiest exhibition of God's great power. And everywhere it is insisted that it is the resurrection from the dead...
Let us allow all that God says as to the reality of the death state. Let us never think of it as life in any sense. Let every element return whence it came.
Our Lord said that all that are in the tombs shall hear His voice and shall come forth...
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-03-2020 at 07:20 PM..
The wicked are Not considered to be in tombs but as ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7
This is why Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28 and does Not say all.
If these people were truly in a kind of 'deep sleep'...how then would it be possible for living people to contact them?*
*Keep in mind that Jesus warned against people doing this, (that implies that it IS POSSIBLE though), if contact was not possible in the first place, there would be no need to warn people about it.
We are warned not to attempt to contact the dead, but we are not told that it cannot be done, in fact we Know that King Saul had a woman with a medium spirit call Samuel up.
1 Samuel 28: 11-19; “Whom shall I call up for you?” the woman asked “Samuel,” he answered.
12When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed and said to Saul, “Why have you tricked me? You are King Saul!”
13“Don't be afraid!” the king said to her. “What do you see?”
“I see a spirit coming up from the earth,” she answered.
14“What does it look like?” he asked.
“It's an old man coming up,” she answered. “He is wearing a cloak.”
Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed to the ground in respect.
15Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me? Why did you make me come back?”
Saul answered, “I am in great trouble! The Philistines are at war with me, and God has abandoned me. He doesn't answer me any more, either by prophets or by dreams. And so I have called you, for you to tell me what I must do.”
16Samuel said, “Why do you call me when the LORD has abandoned you and become your enemy? 17The LORD has done to you what he told you through me: he has taken the kingdom away from you and given it to David instead. 18You disobeyed the LORD's command and did not completely destroy the Amalekites and all they had. That is why the LORD is doing this to you now. 19He will hand you and Israel over to the Philistines. Tomorrow you and your sons will join me, and the LORD will also hand the army of Israel over to the Philistines.”
Of course the JW's will tell you that this was not Samuel, but some demon.
But the Jews of that period believed that it was the righteous Samuel whose rest was disturbed by the Saul through the woman.
From the prophet Sirach 46:13; Samuel, the prophet of the Lord, beloved of his Lord, established a kingdom, and anointed princes over his people.
14 By the law of the Lord he judged the congregation, and the Lord had respect unto Jacob.
15 By his faithfulness he was found a true prophet, and by his word he was known to be faithful in vision.
16 He called upon the mighty Lord, when his enemies pressed upon him on every side, when he offered the sucking lamb.
17 And the Lord thundered from heaven, and with a great noise made his voice to be heard.
18 And he destroyed the rulers of the Tyrians, and all the princes of the Philistines.
19 And before his long sleep he made protestations in the sight of the Lord and his anointed, I have not taken any man's goods, so much as a shoe: and no man did accuse him.
20 And after his death he prophesied, and shewed the king his end, and lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people.
Shana's statement: Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead. We have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
This tells me that no person is living in heaven forever with Jesus right now. Jesus is the only person who possesses immortality. He dwells in unapproachable light and no man or person has seen this or can see this.
God bless.
The point that I am making, Matthew:4:4 is that without the resurrection, we perish. 1 Corinthians 15. The resurrection is essential to our being made alive. This means that no one goes straight to be with Jesus when they die. They are in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
The resurrection is necessary for them to be living with Jesus always. When they are raised, then they will be with the Lord consciously and they will be with Him always. .
Also, Jesus is the only one who has immortality now. No believer is currently living with Jesus in heaven forever. He dwells in unapproachable light that no one can see.
So I am sharing that we are in the graves, dead literally, until we are resurrected by God. Then and only then will we literally be with the Lord always.
God bless.
Yes, agree, the dead are in a sleep-like state (John 11:11-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17) and for them the resurrection is: future.
That is also why the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
That Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming 'Millennium-Long Day' of Jesus governing over Earth for a thousand years.
This is when 'Enemy Death' will be No more on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
At Rev. 22:20 we are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come !
We do Not pray to be 'taken up' to Jesus, nor pray to be 'taken away' to Jesus but for Jesus to come !
Just as we pray for God's Kingdom (thy kingdom come) to come - Daniel 2:44
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as described at Rev. 22:2.
'Healing ' as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah when No one will say, "I am sick...." -Isaiah 33:24
For Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed - Gen. 12:3,
and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Gen. 22:18 - blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations.
That blessing includes Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Those called to heaven have that first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
Those Not called to Heaven (John 3:13) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection with everlasting life in view on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
Plus, the figurative humble ' sheep ' at the soon coming 'time of separation' to take place on Earth (Matthew 25:31-33,37)
can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
This is when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
Yes, agree, the dead are in a sleep-like state (John 11:11-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17) and for them the resurrection is: future.
That is also why the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
That Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming 'Millennium-Long Day' of Jesus governing over Earth for a thousand years.
This is when 'Enemy Death' will be No more on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
At Rev. 22:20 we are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come !
We do Not pray to be 'taken up' to Jesus, nor pray to be 'taken away' to Jesus but for Jesus to come !
Just as we pray for God's Kingdom (thy kingdom come) to come - Daniel 2:44
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as described at Rev. 22:2.
'Healing ' as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah when No one will say, "I am sick...." -Isaiah 33:24
For Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed - Gen. 12:3,
and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Gen. 22:18 - blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations.
That blessing includes Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Those called to heaven have that first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
Those Not called to Heaven (John 3:13) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection with everlasting life in view on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
Plus, the figurative humble ' sheep ' at the soon coming 'time of separation' to take place on Earth (Matthew 25:31-33,37)
can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
This is when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
Then you must deny the resurrection if you Believe as being Gospel truth Ecclesiastes 9:5; which reads: [Good New Bible Catholic study Edition;] " Yes, the living know they are going to die, but the dead know nothing. [Nothing? Samuel did.] They have no further reward; [NO FUTHURE REWARD] they are completely forgotten. 6Their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that happens in this world.
Once you die, you will never again take part in anything that happens in this world.
No life after death, no resurrection, once dead, forever dead, according to Solomon's Satirical work aimed at those who believed that the death of the body was also the death of the mind that had developed within that body.
7So go ahead — eat your food and be happy; drink your wine and be cheerful. It's all right with God. 8Always look happy and cheerful. 9Enjoy life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all you will get for all your trouble. 10Work hard at whatever you do, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead — and that is where you are going.
In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) Parables (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”
Solomon wrote 4 books, and Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘Proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes’ without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.
Last edited by The Anointed; 02-03-2020 at 11:08 PM..
We are warned not to attempt to contact the dead, but we are not told that it cannot be done, in fact we Know that King Saul had a woman with a medium spirit call Samuel up.
1 Samuel 28: 11-19; “Whom shall I call up for you?” the woman asked “Samuel,” he answered.
12When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed and said to Saul, “Why have you tricked me? You are King Saul!”
13“Don't be afraid!” the king said to her. “What do you see?”
“I see a spirit coming up from the earth,” she answered.
14“What does it look like?” he asked.
“It's an old man coming up,” she answered. “He is wearing a cloak.”
Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed to the ground in respect.
15Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me? Why did you make me come back?”
Saul answered, “I am in great trouble! The Philistines are at war with me, and God has abandoned me. He doesn't answer me any more, either by prophets or by dreams. And so I have called you, for you to tell me what I must do.”
16Samuel said, “Why do you call me when the LORD has abandoned you and become your enemy? 17The LORD has done to you what he told you through me: he has taken the kingdom away from you and given it to David instead. 18You disobeyed the LORD's command and did not completely destroy the Amalekites and all they had. That is why the LORD is doing this to you now. 19He will hand you and Israel over to the Philistines. Tomorrow you and your sons will join me, and the LORD will also hand the army of Israel over to the Philistines.”
Of course the JW's will tell you that this was not Samuel, but some demon.
But the Jews of that period believed that it was the righteous Samuel whose rest was disturbed by the Saul through the woman.
From the prophet Sirach 46:13; Samuel, the prophet of the Lord, beloved of his Lord, established a kingdom, and anointed princes over his people.
14 By the law of the Lord he judged the congregation, and the Lord had respect unto Jacob.
15 By his faithfulness he was found a true prophet, and by his word he was known to be faithful in vision.
16 He called upon the mighty Lord, when his enemies pressed upon him on every side, when he offered the sucking lamb.
17 And the Lord thundered from heaven, and with a great noise made his voice to be heard.
18 And he destroyed the rulers of the Tyrians, and all the princes of the Philistines.
19 And before his long sleep he made protestations in the sight of the Lord and his anointed, I have not taken any man's goods, so much as a shoe: and no man did accuse him.
20 And after his death he prophesied, and shewed the king his end, and lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people.
It doesnt sound like a demon to me! I think if it had been a demon, he would have tried to lie and tell him everything was going to fine, or not to trust in God, something along those lines.
A demon is definitely not going to be honest and truthful.
It doesnt sound like a demon to me! I think if it had been a demon, he would have tried to lie and tell him everything was going to fine, or not to trust in God, something along those lines.
A demon is definitely not going to be honest and truthful.
Correct! It was the living disembodied spirit of the righteous Samuel, whose rest was disturbed, as verified by the prophet Sirach. But I have found that the JW [moderator cut] has some very strange teachings.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 02-04-2020 at 08:52 AM..
Reason: Removed the word "cult" following reported post.
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