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Thanks for your response and for sharing your beliefs. In Rev. 7:9-14, there is a vision. I don't believe that visions are actual events that are occurring at the time of the vision. I believe that John saw a vision that revealed that that Jesus Christ died for all people. People from every tribe, nation, tongue would be positively affected by what He did for them.
I do believe that many of the ancient Hebrews believed in people actually living after they died, but this is not what the Hebrew scriptures taught. For example:
Daniel 12: 12 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.
2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Young's Literal)
Those who are sleeping n the dust of the ground awake. Sleeping in the dust of the ground means that they are dead. Jesus referred to death as sleep. This does not mean that he was speaking of soul sleep but He was sharing that death is like sleep. It is like sleep because it is only a temporary state.
Psalm 114: 16 The heavens -- the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,
17 The dead praise not Jah, Nor any going down to silence (Young's literal)
Psalm 146
Praise ye Jah! Praise, O my soul, Jehovah.
2 I praise Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist.
3 Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance.
4 His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished. (Young's Literal)
I do not believe that the dead are aware or that they are conscious.
If we are literally with Jesus when we die, then we have not really died. We have only transitioned from one place to another. But the apostle Paul says:
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Jesus tells the disciples that He will come again and receive them to Himself. They are not going up to Him. He comes to get them and this corresponds with the previous passage shared above.
john 14
4 `Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe;
2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be;
Paul knew that when he died, He would be with the Lord when he was raised by the Lord. This corresponds with the passage in Thessalonians above.
God bless.
You're right in saying that the vision in Rev. 7:9-14 was not something happening at the time. John was being shown a vision of a future event describing tribulational martyrs in heaven. I take that literally as I said. The people in Rev. 7:9-14 appear to be the same people who in Revelation 20:4 get resurrected.
Concerning your comment that ''if we are literally with Jesus when we die, then we have not really died. We have only transitioned from one place to another.'' I guess that depends on how you define physical death. I see physical death as the separation of the soul from the body ---with the soul and spirit going into the presence of the Lord in heaven.
I think that in Old Testament times, just as now, people had different views about things. While there are passages in the Old Testament which seem to imply that some may not have believed in life after death, it shouldn't be ignored that the Mosaic Law prohibited attempts to contact the dead. Nor should it be ignored that people did try to contact the dead thought the use of mediums. This means that many people did believe in some manner of life after death. I point again to King Saul who wanted a medium to contact the dead prophet Samuel (2 Samuel 28:7-20). And the text indicates that Samuel actually was brought up from Sheol. I believe that God is the one who actually caused Samuel to be brought up rather than the medium. God used Samuel to tell Saul that he was about to die.
Okay, I'll leave it at that. I know we'll continue to disagree. We all believe what we believe.
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Seems to me, he said that repentant thief was going to paradise IMMEDIATELY at death..............
Yes, truly or factually Jesus said , ' truly I tell you today, you will be (future tense) with me in paradise' .
The comma has to be 'after ' the word ' today,' because both the thief and Jesus went to the grave on the day they died - Acts 2:27.
In other words, God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day he died but days later.
No one who died before Jesus' died ( includes the thief) had a heavenly calling - John 3:13.
So, the thief will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection when Jesus begins his 1,000-year rule over Earth.
This is also why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be' a resurrection.....
My first reaction upon reading this was, "Yes! That is absolutely right!" When I re-read it, a couple of questions did come to my mind, though, and while I think our beliefs have much in common, we may disagree as to a few points. So, rather than commenting further at this point, I would like to ask you a question or two. What exactly do your mean when you say that our spirit returns to God? In other words, exactly what do you mean by "our spirit"? What is it about us that returns to God? Is it consciousness? Is it life of some sort? Is it a cognizant entity? I've always thought of the spirit as the source of life and believe that, unlike the body, it does not die. What are your thoughts on this?
Hi Katzpur,
When I think of the spirit in one respect, in the respect that it is associated with life and death, I think of it as it is closely related to the breath of life that God gives us. It is the breath of life that God gave to Adam.
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 7: 1 All flesh that [s]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died..
It is the invisible life force, as someone described it. This spirit, the invisible life force, which comes from God gave life to Adam and Adam became a living being or a living soul. I do not think of the spirit as being consciousness. When we die, our spirit returns to God, but our bodies and our souls die. Our soul is our consciousness, sensation, mind, ego, personhood, identify which includes our beliefs, personality, thoughts, emotions . When we die, this dies along with our bodies. The soul is closely aligned with the blood in the body.
Lev. 17:11, “the soul of the flesh is in the blood.”
"As someone has described this: The breath gives life to the blood, which is diffused throughout the body.
Body = flesh.
Soul = blood.
Spirit = breath."
I hope this helps you to see my perspective. God bless.
I've no horse in this race (no longer a Christian and definitely not an inerrantist), but how does John 11:26 fit in with your beliefs, Shana? "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Hi Pleroo, I hope you are doing well. A more literal translation reads:
John 11
"26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;" Young's Literal
"26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?" Concordant Literal
I believe that this verse refers to believers who are resurrected to immortality, living and reigning with Jesus in the next age. God bless.
The Bible has to be interpreted in the time in which it was written. In Jesus' day, in Jewish thought, the righteous who died for their faith went to Abraham's Bosom which was synonymous with paradise.
From the Jewish encylopedia; the entry on Abraham's Bosom/Paradise
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:
By: Kaufmann Kohler
In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).
In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own. Whereupon Abraham said: "They have the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets; let them be mindful of these, and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden of paradise, like Michael in Jewish and St. Peter in Christian folk-lore ("Texts and Studies," v. 55, 69, Cambridge). Of Abraham as attorney pleading for Israel, R. Jonathan also speaks (Shab. 89b). ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
In Acts 2:31, Luke relates how king David looked ahead to the fact of Jesus' resurrection and that he was not abandoned to Hades.
So it is said both that when Jesus died he went to Hades (not hell), and that he went to paradise and told one of the criminals crucified next to him that he would be with him in paradise that day (and no, it is not a matter of punctuation---Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" vs. Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.") which is synonymous with Abraham's Bosom.
A parable, while being a fictitious story, nevertheless relates something that has a basis in reality. When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, with Lazarus being in Abraham's Bosom that was a reference to paradise. Yet, again, Acts 2:31 speaks of Jesus going to Hades but not being abandoned there. Yet,the rich man in Hades was able to see Lazarus which indicates a close spacial relation between Paradise and Hades. Now, I've already said that the story was a parable. I also already said that a parable, while fictitious also has a basis in fact.
Furthermore, the Bible speaks of a place called Tartarus to which a certain group of angels were imprisoned (2 Peter 2:4). In Greek mythology the Titans who were the children of the primordial gods, were imprisoned in Tartarus by Zeus. Tartarus was the lowest part of Hades. But Peter stated that it a group of angels who were imprisoned in Tartarus. Since Peter borrowed Tartarus from Greek mythology to describe the prison of those angels, it can be inferred that Tartarus as used by Peter is also a part of Hades.
And so, yes, there is certainly a scriptural basis for stating that when Jesus died his body went into the tomb and his soul and spirit went to paradise which at the time was located in a section of Hades/Sheol.
Quite a bit of mythology thrown into the scriptural mix, eh Mike?
What appears to have occurred over the ages (and this has already been addressed quite ably by Shana) is that people read the text where Jesus appears to promise meeting up with the thief in 'Paradise' on this very day and therefore they've have to come up with a myth to make the pieces fit. This particular text has not only been misinterpreted but a whole theology has been built around it where 'hell' (the grave) now actually has compartments where 'the dead' await some form of transition between their earthly bodies and their spiritual ones.
What the ...?
Sounds more like an episode of The Twilight Zone than scripture ...insert TTZ theme music. And, if it was a mere episode of TTZ rather than a piece of wonky theology that would be okay. However, we should not be teaching 'wonky theology' from the pulpit and we need to be cautious of those that do. I mean, if they are wrong about this, something that, admittedly, doesn't affect one's salvation, then what else are they wrong about?
Quite a bit of mythology thrown into the scriptural mix, eh Mike?
What appears to have occurred over the ages (and this has already been addressed quite ably by Shana) is that people read the text where Jesus appears to promise meeting up with the thief in 'Paradise' on this very day and therefore they've have to come up with a myth to make the pieces fit. This particular text has not only been misinterpreted but a whole theology has been built around it where 'hell' (the grave) now actually has compartments where 'the dead' await some form of transition between their earthly bodies and their spiritual ones.
What the ...?
Sounds more like an episode of The Twilight Zone than scripture ...insert TTZ theme music. And, if it was a mere episode of TTZ rather than a piece of wonky theology that would be okay. However, we should not be teaching 'wonky theology' from the pulpit and we need to be cautious of those that do. I mean, if they are wrong about this, something that, admittedly, doesn't affect one's salvation, then what else are they wrong about?
All that I said is scriptural and a part of Jewish and Christian beliefs whether you approve of them or not. Your view concerning soul sleep is not held by mainstream Christianity. Now, if you want to debate it, do it with someone else.
All that I said is scriptural and a part of Jewish and Christian beliefs whether you approve of them or not. Your view concerning soul sleep is not held by mainstream Christianity. Now, if you want to debate it, do it with someone else.
Pulling out, eh, Mike? Why are you making me your adversary just because I don't agree with you?
As for 'soul sleep' ...what the heck IS soul sleep and where did I ever use that term? All I have said all along in this discussion is that the Bible authors - NOT "I" - consistently refer to death as 'sleep'. So did Jesus. So did Paul. This is not 'my view'. How can you dismiss this as long as you have the ability to read from the same book as I do? Unless you have selective vision (whatever the heck that is) I simply don't understand.
As for what is held by mainstream Christianity that might differ from my understanding of scripture that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY equates death to 'sleep', all I can say is that mainstream Christianity is wrong.
Pulling out, eh, Mike? Why are you making me your adversary just because I don't agree with you?
As for 'soul sleep' ...what the heck IS soul sleep and where did I ever use that term? All I have said all along in this discussion is that the Bible authors - NOT "I" - consistently refer to death as 'sleep'. So did Jesus. So did Paul. This is not 'my view'. How can you dismiss this as long as you have the ability to read from the same book as I do? Unless you have selective vision (whatever the heck that is) I simply don't understand.
As for what is held by mainstream Christianity that might differ from my understanding of scripture that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY equates death to 'sleep', all I can say is that mainstream Christianity is wrong.
Mainstream Christianity also believes that the man Jesus was born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus. What????
My understanding of the Bible about death is as follows:
Early Jews up through the time of Jesus were taught that both the wicked and the righteous ended up in sheol.
Some points about this period of time:
* Dust you are and dust you will return.-Genesis
* The faithful man Job asked that God remember him while he was dead,( in sheol).-Job
* The dead are said to be conscious of nothing at all.-Ecclesiastes
* When the apostles asked Jesus about Lazarus he likened death to sleep. Not that it was literal sleep. Rather, it was in line with Jewish belief up to that point. When people sleep they are unconscious of most things. When one dies the dead are "not conscious of anything." Martha, Lazarus's sister expressed hope in seeing her brother again but it was during the time of the resurrection. There is nothing in that account that Lazarus or something of him survived death. He had been dead for days and when he was resurrected there is nothing in that account that he returned from some spirit realm.
Even the friends and the followers of Jesus believed that the dead 'sleep' until the day of their resurrection. Within the Lazarus story we see that Martha's theology on the topic was pretty sound. Here are the relevant verses to prove my point:
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
It had been clearly taught to Martha (a Jew) that her brother would live again on the resurrection morning and NOT UNTIL. The disciples also knew that 'death' equates to 'sleep' as we see here in this verse:
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
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Yes. God bless.
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