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Ironmaw1776,
First, Scripture never teaches or implies that all peoples have ever been considered God's chosen people. In the OT it was only the nation of Israel and converts to Judaism.
Second, "Israel" of the NT (God's chosen) are now ones who are by faith. Never does "Israel" come to mean "all" people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Why cant you just accept the truth about what Biblical Christian Universalism actually teaches?
Because Jesus came to testify to the truth. God really said: John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12
God said those verses and Romans 11:10 "May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." (which is not a restoration menuever exercise).
Back's being bent forever with eyes being darkened isn't a picture of heaven, rather a back "being beaten with many blows" Luke 12:47 and eyes darkened "thrown outside into darkness" Matthew 8:12
Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."
Ironmaw1776,
First, Scripture never teaches or implies that all peoples have ever been considered God's chosen people. In the OT it was only the nation of Israel and converts to Judaism.
Second, "Israel" of the NT (God's chosen) are now ones who are by faith. Never does "Israel" come to mean "all" people.
I never said that unbelievers in this life are considered to be the elect.
Quote:
Because Jesus came to testify to the truth. God really said: John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12
God said those verses and Romans 11:10 "May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." (which is not a restoration menuever exercise).
Back's being bent forever with eyes being darkened isn't a picture of heaven, rather a back "being beaten with many blows" Luke 12:47 and eyes darkened "thrown outside into darkness" Matthew 8:12
Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."
This is not an answer to my question ... "why cant you just accept the truth about what Biblical Christian Universalism actually teaches?" ...
And whats more, the content of Romans 11 proves that the translation "forever" in Romans 11:10 is erroneous ...
The word there translated as "forever" is "diapantos" and it means "continually", not forever or everlasting.
Those who were made enemies of the gospel and therefore were not saved from the judgment of Israel which took place in 70 AD will be saved, for though they were enemies of the gospel, they were loved for the sake of their ancestors. Only the elect, those of Israel along with those gentiles that believe who God chooses to give redemption and faith to believe in Christ are the elect, and it was the elect o f the time of Christ that were saved from the judgment of Israel in 70 AD.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-05-2010 at 01:28 AM..
There are no second chances to be saved. Yep, that's right. But did you know there are no first chances to be saved? The bible never uses the word "chance" in connection with salvation. Why? Because God does not save people for the coming ages by chance but by choice . . . His choice.
He chose specific individuals before they were born who would be saved to live for the duration of the next two ages to come. The rest of mankind He did not choose.
So if there is an eternal hell, then God created billions of people just for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them since He obviously chose for them to not be saved. That is what the ET doctrine must boil down to if such a fate awaits the majority of mankind.
"God chose us before the disruption of the world." That disruption occurred way back in Genesis 1:2 before any human was created.
So, there are no second chances and no first chances. Salvation is not by chance but choice; His choice.
Paladinking, you do understand, do you not, that Eusebius is a Christian Biblical Universalist?
We URs see in the Bible that God is choosing a first fruits of election, a remnant chosen by grace alone out of each generation. Then, later, all of the non-elect will be saved too.
Paul himself admitted the his coming to faith was "abnormally born". Most people come to faith by continual exposure, not dramatic fassion.
This is interesting. I would like to ask my fellow URers on here a question, for I can see, as well as most URers here, that Paul, throughout his life, had TWO beliefs, did he not?
I can see that BEFORE Christ showed Himself to Paul, he was a Pharasee and was "raised" a Pharisee? Would this not fall into Twin's catagory of "continual exposure" to a religion????
Furthermore, we can all admit (even Paul does, according to Twin, and I agree) that the revealing of JESUS to Paul was "abnormally born", can we not??
Although, I see in Twin's statement here, a Spiritual Truth that he himself may not be seeing. My questions to Twin are as followed....
Your statement says that Paul's "coming to faith in Christ" was special in some way, to which we all agree. But would he not be put in the same group as "Most" when in regards to "coming to faith" as a Pharisee (as in "most Pharisees"), that being "continual exposure" in his rearing?? You can admit that a lot of Christians are Christians because Mom and Dad are Christians, or are reared in a 'church going' life. Paul's father was a Pharisee and Paul was reared or 'schooled' to become a Pharisee. So is it anything "surprising" (special) at all that he became a Pharisee anymore than it is that a certain person becomes a "Christian" (or denomination thereof)??
His conversion ("coming to faith") to "another" belief was indeed, as you say, a "dramatic fassion". This we can't deny and this is where my question to my fellow URers comes in. I for one would describe my "conversion to UR" to be in a DRAMATIC FASSION. I also had a "past" belief that came about by 'continual exposure'. My questions would be the same to you.
Was your "change or conversion" to UR brought about in a "dramatic fassion" compared to your "be-coming a Christian" like "most people"??
And....
Did you, indeed, have a "past" belief/faith??
I think it would surprise Twin to hear your answers in accordance with his own statement.
Twin...do you see the similarities between the conflict between the Christendom/UR disagreement today and the disagreement back then (Phari/Sadu and Christ/followers)?? IMO, it is very revealing, for we URers are persecuted, in much of the same manner, by those of Christianity today. Not to mention we are VERY FEW and always have been. We "used to" believe in the same things you do (as in Saul being a Pharisee did) and NOW we see things totally different (as in Pual being SHOWN Christ). Back THEN, Saul "KILLED" the Christians by the "written epistles" of the "High Priest and Elders", and he did this LITERALLY!! Later he did the TOTALLY OPPOSITE, by "becoming" the "Hated". Nowadays, we URers are being killed "spiritually" in your mind (ET) by the very "epistles" you THINK you know (John 5:39), because we think TOTALLY OPPOSITE then you do, and our beliefs are somewhat "Hated". I truely think that if given the same governing factors as the "dark ages" had, then Christianity would KILL us LITERALLY today (of course, I speak this way because I live in the USA).
It is no doubt that you and others portray us in such manners as "stupid....ignorant....liars....evil....satanic... .fools.....idiots....etc.", for most of US used to do the same. This is NO MYSTERY to me, because now I think with a "different MIND" than you. Of this I do no boast, for you WILL be my brother in Christ. But it is all too understandable to me that we are treated in such manners. The carnal really does have "hatred" towards the spirit (Rom 8:7).
I never said that unbelievers in this life are considered to be the elect.
And the unbelievers are never mentioned as the elect in the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
This is not an answer to my question ... "why cant you just accept the truth about what Biblical Christian Universalism actually teaches?" ...
I was hoping that you could have gotten the remnant of what Jesus was saying .....
Because the remnant of verses say to the contrary ..
The truth about universalism still remains that one has to have a biased view of certian words to shape other verses to fit what they need it to say rather than letting scripture shape the opinion.
John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12 is the truth. And as such, makes universalism unbiblical.
Which begs the question in return ...."why can't you just accept the truth about what Universalism actually teaches and realize that..
it's not Biblical
it's not Christian
it's not the truth
"Did God really say you will die" ....John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12
Twin, neither the verses you quoted, nor any other verse in the Bible, detracts from the truth that a correctly, (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation.
And the unbelievers are never mentioned as the elect in the next.
Again i never said unbelievers were a part of the elect, in any sense, unless they come to believe.
Quote:
I was hoping that you could have gotten the remnant of what Jesus was saying .....
Because the remnant of verses say to the contrary ..
The truth about universalism still remains that one has to have a biased view of certian words to shape other verses to fit what they need it to say rather than letting scripture shape the opinion.
John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12 is the truth. And as such, makes universalism unbiblical.
Just as i thought, you are absolutely unable to accept what UR really teaches.
The truth about Universalism is it teaches what the scripture truly teach when translated and interpreted correctly. Something that you may never be able to accept in this life ... But one day you will.
Christian Universal;ism was the doctrine believed and taught by the vast majority of Christians in the first 5 centuries, that is a fact. ET did not become the popular orthodox belief of Christianity until the 5th century, simple fact.
Quote:
Which begs the question in return ...."why can't you just accept the truth about what Universalism actually teaches and realize that..
it's not Biblical
it's not Christian
it's not the truth
"Did God really say you will die" ....John 3:36, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15, Luke 12:47,Matthew 8:12
Yes .. he ... did.
The scriptures written in the original languages do not and never did teach ET or annihilation, that is why the eastern church, who all spoke Koine Greek as their native tongue, embraced the doctrine of UR since their inception and until Rome finally took over Christianity and made ET orthodox dogma.
Hold on tight to your precious and cherished doctrine of Everlasting Torture while you still can ... Enjoy your infinitely violent delusion while it lasts. I know how much security it gives you.
Universalism believed by most closest to Jesus' time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
The truth about Universalism is it teaches what the scripture truly teach when translated and interpreted correctly. Something that you may never be able to accept in this life ... But one day you will.
Christian Universalism was the doctrine believed and taught by the vast majority of Christians in the first 5 centuries, that is a fact. ET did not become the popular orthodox belief of Christianity until the 5th century, simple fact.
The scriptures written in the original languages do not and never did teach ET or annihilation, that is why the eastern church, who all spoke Koine Greek as their native tongue, embraced the doctrine of UR since their inception and until Rome finally took over Christianity and made ET orthodox dogma.
Hold on tight to your precious and cherished doctrine of Everlasting Torture while you still can ... Enjoy your infinitely violent delusion while it lasts. I know how much security it gives you.
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” (end of quote)
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-05-2010 at 12:35 PM..
Reason: correction
Christian Universal;ism was the doctrine believed and taught by the vast majority of Christians in the first 5 centuries, that is a fact. ET did not become the popular orthodox belief of Christianity until the 5th century, simple fact.
Hi Ironmaw i purposely snipped this post of yours, because if there are posters like myself who by the time they are halfway down a post and they think to themselves, is this guy for real ?, i just don't bother reading the rest of the post. So i thought it would be good to isolate this paragraph of yours for the likes of myself in the hope that some may catch what you said.
One quick question do you think maybe the church in the first 5 centuries did not have light about the doctrine of Eternal Torment , like in the same manner leading up to the reformation when the truth about was lost about "the just shall live by faith", even though it was right there in the scriptures ?.
Has the teaching of hell been beneficial to mankind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Hi Ironmaw i purposely snipped this post of yours, because if there are posters like myself who by the time they are halfway down a post and they think to themselves, is this guy for real ?, i just don't bother reading the rest of the post. So i thought it would be good to isolate this paragraph of yours for the likes of myself in the hope that some may catch what you said.
One quick question, do you think maybe the church in the first 5 centuries did not have light about the doctrine of Eternal Torment , like in the same manner leading up to the reformation when the truth about was lost about "the just shall live by faith", even though it was right there in the scriptures ?.
Perhaps this might shed some light on that question pcamps.
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Redemption in two parts
SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE THE 2nd DEATH
?, i just don't bother reading the rest of the post. So i thought it would be good to isolate this paragraph of yours for the likes of myself in the hope that some may catch what you said.
