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I my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let some of us choose ourselves into an inescapable state of never ending suffering, and not go stark raving mad thinking about it!
Never in the history of human emotion has there been a hatred more perfect than mine towards a doctrine of the so-called "Christian" church!!
It is no wonder that so many prefer to live out their lives as agnostics, treating other people like they would like to be treated themselves, and hoping that after they are raised from the dead they will not find out that God is like the ETers say He is.
I am just so glad that I can guide people to Biblical evidence that God is not like that.
Two good writings proving Christian Biblical Universalism that can be Googled up are
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby
and
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST - Slagle
Amen bro!
I read the Eby one already, will read the Absolute Assurance in JC next.
You know , if I somehow found out for a fact that ET really IS true , I would renounce my faith, renounce God and maybe even join forces with the dark side. Any deity that tortures souls for all of eternity...I don't even think Jeffrey Dahmer was capable of that.
I read the Eby one already, will read the Absolute Assurance in JC next.
You know , if I somehow found out for a fact that ET really IS true , I would renounce my faith, renounce God and maybe even join forces with the dark side. Any deity that tortures souls for all of eternity...I don't even think Jeffrey Dahmer was capable of that.
Yeah, it would be like when Darth Vader realized that he had been deceived and the evil emperor was lying to him all along and feeding on his hate. When he realizes his love for his son, and the evil ambition of the emperor to dominate and destroy everything he once loved, he had an epiphany and turned against his evil slave master, ultimately becoming the savior he was prophesied to be.
I'm not a star wars freak ... Well, not exactly ... But you know what i mean.
Yeah, it would be like when Darth Vader realized that he had been deceived and the evil emperor was lying to him all along and feeding on his hate. When he realizes his love for his son, and the evil ambition of the emperor to dominate and destroy everything he once loved, he had an epiphany and turned against his evil slave master, ultimately becoming the savior he was prophesied to be.
We will be carried to a higher place, even while we yet live.
There are no second chances to be saved. Yep, that's right. But did you know there are no first chances to be saved? The bible never uses the word "chance" in connection with salvation. Why? Because God does not save people for the coming ages by chance but by choice . . . His choice.
He chose specific individuals before they were born who would be saved to live for the duration of the next two ages to come. The rest of mankind He did not choose.
So if there is an eternal hell, then God created billions of people just for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them since He obviously chose for them to not be saved. That is what the ET doctrine must boil down to if such a fate awaits the majority of mankind.
"God chose us before the disruption of the world." That disruption occurred way back in Genesis 1:2 before any human was created.
So, there are no second chances and no first chances. Salvation is not by chance but choice; His choice.
SAVED BY “CHANCE” OR BY JESUS CHRIST ALONE?
Solomon said, "The day of death is better than the day of birth." Eccl. 7:1
And what of our birth?
"We were born into other men's homes,
victims of their sins,
raised in their schools of thought,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."
---James M. Rohde
The Bible never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God.
It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die.
Nothing in the Bible says God's saving work is limited to this life, or that it ceases when somebody dies.
The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.
After death comes the judgment, yes, but that judgment will result in kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for those who need it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.
There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment.
It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment.
God's punishment is always for man's cure." End quote
Kolasis aionion doesn't save. Only Jesus saves.
But it will condition the rebellious sinner to sooner or later reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided by having them temporarily experience the consequences of their rebellion.
Unlike humans with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
This is the kind of God that we universal transformationists see in a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible.
JUDGEMENT - A.P. Adams
An excellent exposition on this subject! judgment.html
every moment of life we are blessed with , we are given a chance to be saved, now is all we have, To please god is our life's purpose.
we must use our time wisely
Every moment of life we are blessed with, we are given a chance to be saved, now is all we have.
No one is given a "chance" to be saved.
We are saved by God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Christ to be "choice" in our heart.
Until He does that for us we will remain in the condition of Roman 3: 10-18.
I think repeating this poem may be a good response to your message.
Chance? by L. C.
In future days oh will there be
Another chance to yet make good?
Does God intend to let us see
If lessons learned were understood?
To let us start life o'er again
With stronger faith, and greater pow'r-
A life without the sin and pain,
Without temptation hour by hour?
Oh no! God nothing leaves to chance,
He made a settled perfect plan,
Each move well thought out in advance
With overwhelming good for man.
Creation all He'll reconcile-
The whole of it--both heav'n and earth.
Though evil may all minds beguile,
Yet in His cross true peace had birth.
Yes--having made this perfect peace
He'll draw all men to Him at last;
He'll give a weary world release,
With sin a thing forever past.
He'll make anew a sin-cursed earth,
Put ev'ry harmful thing away.
No fear or pain, no dreaded dearth
Will in creation wend its way.
What rest and joy such life would mean--
It surely would be "life indeed,"
No rift to ever come between,
No more of selfishness or greed.
Since God has planned this future good
For ev'ry creature ent'ring life,
Tell out the tidings as you should,
So sorely needed in the strife.
For hearts are weary of unrest,
Of disappointment, discord, pain;
Of trying hard to do the best,
Yet proving in the end how vain.
So tell them of the future fair,
Pass on the message with delight;
That day of joy each soul shall share
When Christ has come to put things right.
AMEN
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-15-2010 at 07:14 AM..
Reason: spacing
Solomon said, "The day of death is better than the day of birth." Eccl. 7:1
And what of our birth?
"We were born into other men's homes,
victims of their sins,
raised in their schools of thought,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."
---James M. Rohde
The Bible never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God.
It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die.
Nothing in the Bible says God's saving work is limited to this life, or that it ceases when somebody dies.
The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.
After death comes the judgment, yes, but that judgment will result in kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for those who need it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.
There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment.
It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment.
God's punishment is always for man's cure." End quote
Kolasis aionion doesn't save. Only Jesus saves.
But it will condition the rebellious sinner to sooner or later reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided by having them temporarily experience the consequences of their rebellion.
Unlike humans with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
This is the kind of God that we universal transformationists see in a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible.
JUDGEMENT - A.P. Adams
An excellent exposition on this subject! judgment.html
Good stuff rodgertutt.
Do not want to sidetrack this and I am reluctant to even bring it up but do you think there is any chance that judgement COULD be for some people that you have to come back to earth again?
Didn't God say He would give man 120 years to mend his evil ways? What about those who only live for a decade or two?
(watch the ET'ers now come like vultures and say "See , the UR camp now preaches reincarnation, everything they preach is faulty")
There are no second chances to be saved. Yep, that's right. But did you know there are no first chances to be saved? The bible never uses the word "chance" in connection with salvation. Why? Because God does not save people for the coming ages by chance but by choice . . . His choice.
He chose specific individuals before they were born who would be saved to live for the duration of the next two ages to come. The rest of mankind He did not choose.
So if there is an eternal hell, then God created billions of people just for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them since He obviously chose for them to not be saved. That is what the ET doctrine must boil down to if such a fate awaits the majority of mankind.
"God chose us before the disruption of the world." That disruption occurred way back in Genesis 1:2 before any human was created.
So, there are no second chances and no first chances. Salvation is not by chance but choice; His choice.
Good one Eusebius.
Pride says, "I took the "chance" that God gave me and I got myself saved by properly cooperating with Him."
Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said,
“I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”
Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.
God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.
God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERSEDE the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
I read the Eby one already, will read the Absolute Assurance in JC next.
You know , if I somehow found out for a fact that ET really IS true , I would renounce my faith, renounce God and maybe even join forces with the dark side. Any deity that tortures souls for all of eternity...I don't even think Jeffrey Dahmer was capable of that.
And THAT is the difference between your doctrine and beliefs against the Word of God.
The ET person will rejoice if UR is true.
The Conditional Immortality person will rejoice if UR is true.
The UR person will reject God if either of the above are true.
Interesting. It speaks volumes about your true motives. And it ISN'T YOUR LOVE for the Creator of the universe, nor His Son who suffered greatly even to save just 1 soul.
See, I believe Jesus died for me. I also believe that if EVERYONE was saved anyway, except for me, that He would have still come and hung on the tree, for me.
And although I disagree with the UR doctrine now, EBY is an awesome read.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-19-2010 at 08:13 AM..
Reason: correction
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Saved by “chance” or by jesus christ alone?
God’s desire, and ability, and intention
