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There are no second chances to be saved. Yep, that's right. But did you know there are no first chances to be saved? The bible never uses the word "chance" in connection with salvation. Why? Because God does not save people for the coming ages by chance but by choice . . . His choice.
He chose specific individuals before they were born who would be saved to live for the duration of the next two ages to come. The rest of mankind He did not choose.
So if there is an eternal hell, then God created billions of people just for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them since He obviously chose for them to not be saved. That is what the ET doctrine must boil down to if such a fate awaits the majority of mankind.
"God chose us before the disruption of the world." That disruption occurred way back in Genesis 1:2 before any human was created.
So, there are no second chances and no first chances. Salvation is not by chance but choice; His choice.
It this is the case and everything is predestined anyway, what difference does it make what people believe
I can't understand why those that believe in ET are so pedantic towards the beliefs of those that believe in UR, as well as towards those of other faiths and/or deists/agnostics/atheists
If everything is predestined, then all is going according to God's plan anyway, so what's the problem, and why so much arguing about it
[quote=HotinAZ;15944565]
The ET person will rejoice if UR is true.
The Conditional Immortality person will rejoice if UR is true.
The UR person will reject God if either of the above are true. [quote]
What we URs do reject is the hiddeous characature of God that ETer's believe in.
We are simply unable to love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
BTW, regarding "conditional immortality,"
In his introduction explaining why he changed from believing the Bible teaches annihilation to the Bible teaches universal salvation, Gary Amirault wrote.
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
And THAT is the difference between your doctrine and beliefs against the Word of God.
The ET person will rejoice if UR is true.
The Conditional Immortality person will rejoice if UR is true.
The UR person will reject God if either of the above are true.
Interesting. It speaks volumes about your true motives. And it ISN'T YOUR LOVE for the Creator of the universe, nor His Son who suffered greatly even to save just 1 soul.
See, I believe Jesus died for me. I also believe that if EVERYONE was saved anyway, except for me, that He would have still come and hung on the tree, for me.
And although I disagree with the UR doctrine now, EBY is an awesome read.
Hmmm...so you know my true motives, huh?
I'm not following what your trying to tell me. It isn't my love for the Creator or the Son? What does that mean?
Plus, I think we've already proven that The ET person will not rejoice if UR is true. We've already seen many posts from ET'ers that they said they would rejoice over the eternal suffering of the unbelievers. They are getting what they deserve according to the ETer.
Theological Arminians believe that God gives the lucky ones (i.e. the ones that hear about Jesus before they die) a "chance" to get saved.
Theological Calvinists believe that God has determined beforehand that some will suffer forever.
Theological Universalists believe that God is determined to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.
It’s as if the god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian eternal tormentor relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.
It’s as if the god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"Since there is nothing you can do about it since you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”
Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race totally depraved and unable to choose correctly (Calvinist)!!
Thank God a correctly (literally not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach such insane ideas!
Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST - Slagle
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-23-2010 at 01:26 PM..
Reason: addition
Salvation by predestination proves error by the revelation of Holy Spirit , so all this calvinism doctrine is proved error .... Lord Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, taking the honor that Adam had lost and therefor Jesus proves worthy to save all people who turn to him and Clean their heart for the fruit of the Spirit will be guarenteed saved.....so all literal ideas need to be examined through Holy Spirit
Zero, at least you and I will enjoy the following.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7
Hmmm...so you know my true motives, huh?
I'm not following what your trying to tell me. It isn't my love for the Creator or the Son? What does that mean?
Plus, I think we've already proven that The ET person will not rejoice if UR is true. We've already seen many posts from ET'ers that they said they would rejoice over the eternal suffering of the unbelievers. They are getting what they deserve according to the ETer.
Zero, at least you and I will enjoy the following.
MARTIN ZENDER'S ATTACKS ON ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
A video of Martin Zender's most recent attack on eternal torment theology, sent out by him today.
GOD'S PLAN OF THE AGES solves Calvinism vs Arminianism
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc
all this Calvinism doctrine is error
It's the eternal torment aspect of both Calvinism and Arminianism that, to me, is the greatest error.
It’s as if the god that Arminian (free-willer) Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
IMO, the truth of universal salvation, (first the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, then the rest later), solves the difference between eternal torment Calvinism, and eternal torment Arminianism.
The <one huge glob of un-formatted text removed> one.
No one can wade through a heap of un-formatted text like you posted. Your ability to express yourself is drastically restricted by your writing style. I simply skip posts with no formatting, regardless of the topic or writer. If the writer cannot articulate themselves well, it reflects that the content is likely as feeble.
Look at ever other post in the thread, note those things called paragraphs? It drastically helps with the readability, and it reflects the literacy of the writer.
God certainly did choose those who whould be receiving age-during life.
Rom 8:30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also."
Do you notice the progression of events in the verse above? He designated beforehand, before the disruption of the world in Genesis 1:2, who would believe. Then He calls them into salvation. Then He justifies them then He glorifies them. Notice there is no doubt in His mind as to the divine order of what will occur? Notice whom He designated beforehand will be glorified by him as well? Also . . .
Rom 9:16 "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."
Say this 100 times: "It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
Where does free will come in if salvation is not of him who is willing?
NOT A CHANCE EH!! You are right Eusebius.
One more time for good measure. “It is not of him who is willing.”
In direct contradiction to this, the free-willers say that salvation is of him who is willing.
What more can we say Eusebius?
“That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
Eph. 1:12
It’s a sad fact that most Christians think they started trusting in Christ as their Savior because God gave them a “chance” to either start trusting in Him, or not start trusting in Him.
Some day, these same people will learn that they started trusting in Jesus as their Savior only because God laid hold on them by His saving grace and caused Jesus to be “choice” in their heart.
Some day they will learn that it was not even possible for them to not start trusting in Jesus as their Savior at that point in time that they did start trusting in Him.
Some day these same people will testify and say, “God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”
By inspiration of God’s Spirit, Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1Tim. 1:15). That means, does it not, that as far as having a determined attitude (or a so-called “free” will if you like) to keep committing sin, Paul was worse than anyone else.
Given the circumstances, can you imagine Saul of Tarsus saying “F--- you Jesus Christ, I’m going to keep persecuting your followers just like I always have.
Not a “chance” eh!!
Some day, everyone will learn that although our conversion may not have been anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's, it was no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.
God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.
God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will eventually SUPERSEDE the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
As James Coram puts it, “It is an empty gesture to go through the motions of giving all the glory to God, while at the same time continually believing that good decisions and acts are things which ultimately owe their existence to one’s own self.
It is only the word of the cross that effectively and wisely trains us in this true humility so that “if anyone is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting,” as Paul says.” (end of quote)
The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
Remember folks.
The first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, are saved first, then all the rest later. This truth solves the difference between eternal torment Calvinism, and eternal torment Arminianism.
One more time for good measure. “It is not of him who is willing.”
In direct contradiction to this, the free-willers say that salvation is of him who is willing.
What more can we say Eusebius?
“That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
Eph. 1:12
It’s a sad fact that most Christians think they started trusting in Christ as their Savior because God gave them a “chance” to either start trusting in Him, or not start trusting in Him.
Some day, these same people will learn that they started trusting in Jesus as their Savior only because God laid hold on them by His saving grace and caused Jesus to be “choice” in their heart.
Some day they will learn that it was not even possible for them to not start trusting in Jesus as their Savior at that point in time that they did start trusting in Him.
Some day these same people will testify and say, “God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”
By inspiration of God’s Spirit, Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1Tim. 1:15). That means, does it not, that as far as having a determined attitude (or a so-called “free” will if you like) to keep committing sin, Paul was worse than anyone else.
Given the circumstances, can you imagine Saul of Tarsus saying “F--- you Jesus Christ, I’m going to keep persecuting your followers just like I always have.
Not a “chance” eh!!
Some day, everyone will learn that although our conversion may not have been anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's, it was no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.
God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.
God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will eventually SUPERSEDE the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
As James Coram puts it, “It is an empty gesture to go through the motions of giving all the glory to God, while at the same time continually believing that good decisions and acts are things which ultimately owe their existence to one’s own self.
It is only the word of the cross that effectively and wisely trains us in this true humility so that “if anyone is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting,” as Paul says.” (end of quote)
The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
Remember folks.
The first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, are saved first, then all the rest later. This truth solves the difference between eternal torment Calvinism, and eternal torment Arminianism.
LOL ... Man, I like you Roger ... Your the real deal!
God bless my friend ...
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What urs do reject
GOD'S PLAN OF THE AGES solves Calvinism vs Arminianism
