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Act 1:16 said, "Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus,
It was predestined through the foreknowledge of the Spirit in regards to what Judas would do, fulfilling that which would take place; the holiness of Christ. However, it was also Judas’s choice to accept the money, or not. It appears that he lacked the understanding and wisdom of what Christ was sent to accomplish for all men, not just some of them; missing the mark as many do today. It also appears that Judas repented, having a change, no pun intended, of heart. There are many money changers, even today, that sell the "word" of God. So, was the betrayal of Christ an intentional sin, given the fact that Judas did not understand, or that of receiving the money in exchange? Did Judas compound things based on his own interest, again, no pun intended?
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
Judas was counted among them and received his share in the ministry of Christ; "Be ye holy; for He is holy."
I will not expound on the predestination and foreknowledge of the SPIRIT in this thread, as these are just a few of my thoughts for now.
To bring up the word "logic" when speaking of traditional Christianity's interpretation of God (most of it has been interpreted through anything but logic) and his work makes me smile.
I've been thinking........If you look around at the Universe with it's awesome order and intricate design (Has anyone taken an Anatomy and Physiology class?!), it hardly makes a bit of sense that, if God exists, he would want his people to blindly go about considering his ways. Much of Christianity is in comlete disorder and much of it is complete nonsense, if one would take a logical look into it (setting people on fire for eternity for WHATEVER reason is not order and it is NOT justice. Even a child could understand this, as they say). I don't believe that God would bring about the salvation of his creatures any differently than he would go about creating order in general. He would NOT leave it to CHANCE!
("Oh, darn. Timmy didn't get there in time to save Suzy from that horrific car crash, and she didn't believe in me, and I had no way of knowing ('cause I'm not all knowing) she would die without believing in me and I was hoping (hoping, 'cause I'm not really in control) someone would get there to save her. I guess I'm going to have to set her on fire for eternity." That is chaos, not order.)
There is NO reason to leave common sense and logic behind just because we have faith that he exists.
God is the ULTIMATE logician!!!
I say to Christianity; don't leave your brain behind. It's okay to use it.
juj, double predestination is true but not the diabolical way the eternal torment crowd believes.
God did predestinate just so many to be saved for a special work for the coming ages. Later on the rest of mankind will be saved at the conclusion of the ages.
Look at it this way, if believers are the only ones who will ever be saved then how can we have a special commission to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth? See Ephesians 1:9,10.
I love this poem
Chance? by L. C.
In future days oh will there be
Another chance to yet make good?
Does God intend to let us see
If lessons learned were understood?
To let us start life o'er again
With stronger faith, and greater pow'r-
A life without the sin and pain,
Without temptation hour by hour?
Oh no! God nothing leaves to chance,
He made a settled perfect plan,
Each move well thought out in advance
With overwhelming good for man.
Creation all He'll reconcile-
The whole of it--both heav'n and earth.
Though evil may all minds beguile,
Yet in His cross true peace had birth.
Yes--having made this perfect peace
He'll draw all men to Him at last;
He'll give a weary world release,
With sin a thing forever past.
He'll make anew a sin-cursed earth,
Put ev'ry harmful thing away.
No fear or pain, no dreaded dearth
Will in creation wend its way.
What rest and joy such life would mean--
It surely would be "life indeed,"
No rift to ever come between,
No more of selfishness or greed.
Since God has planned this future good
For ev'ry creature ent'ring life,
Tell out the tidings as you should,
So sorely needed in the strife.
For hearts are weary of unrest,
Of disappointment, discord, pain;
Of trying hard to do the best,
Yet proving in the end how vain.
So tell them of the future fair,
Pass on the message with delight;
That day of joy each soul shall share
When Christ has come to put things right.
In future days oh will there be
Another chance to yet make good?
Does God intend to let us see
If lessons learned were understood?
To let us start life o'er again
With stronger faith, and greater pow'r-
A life without the sin and pain,
Without temptation hour by hour?
Oh no! God nothing leaves to chance,
He made a settled perfect plan,
Each move well thought out in advance
With overwhelming good for man.
Creation all He'll reconcile-
The whole of it--both heav'n and earth.
Though evil may all minds beguile,
Yet in His cross true peace had birth.
Yes--having made this perfect peace
He'll draw all men to Him at last;
He'll give a weary world release,
With sin a thing forever past.
He'll make anew a sin-cursed earth,
Put ev'ry harmful thing away.
No fear or pain, no dreaded dearth
Will in creation wend its way.
What rest and joy such life would mean--
It surely would be "life indeed,"
No rift to ever come between,
No more of selfishness or greed.
Since God has planned this future good
For ev'ry creature ent'ring life,
Tell out the tidings as you should,
So sorely needed in the strife.
For hearts are weary of unrest,
Of disappointment, discord, pain;
Of trying hard to do the best,
Yet proving in the end how vain.
So tell them of the future fair,
Pass on the message with delight;
That day of joy each soul shall share
When Christ has come to put things right.
AMEN
Great poem Roger. It reminds me of Romans 8:20-21...
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Great poem Roger. It reminds me of Romans 8:20-21...
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature old things are passed away behold all things are become new.
This has nothing to do with the entire universe or planetary creation.
I don't understand your point. If you are saying Romans 8:20 is not referring to creation (ie. including all humans), I don't see it...
Are you saying Romans 8:20 is only referring to "nature"?
Or are you saying Romans 8:20 is only referring to some subset of humans, because 2 Cor 5:17 uses the word "creature" (ie. those who are a "new" creation")?
KJV says:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Clearly it is humans who have been subjected to VANITY. All humans are vain. And likewise, it is these same humans who will be delivered from this bondage and corruption. That's what it says.
the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God
Sound all-inclusive to me.
In fact it sounds a lot like Colossian 1:20
"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth or in heaven."
Inanimate objects don't need reconciling.
Only all fallen creatures need reconciling.
I understand that "heavens" is in the plural the Greek, which to me makes it mean that reconciliation will include all fallen creatures on earth and everywhere else too.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-07-2010 at 12:59 PM..
Reason: spelling
juj, double predestination is true but not the diabolical way the eternal torment crowd believes.
God did predestinate just so many to be saved for a special work for the coming ages. Later on the rest of mankind will be saved at the conclusion of the ages.
Look at it this way, if believers are the only ones who will ever be saved then how can we have a special commission to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth? See Ephesians 1:9,10.
My understanding of it is that God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7) The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious, and it is not limited to this lifetime as the “orthodox” church would have us believe.
It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity.
Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17) Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment, but they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life.
Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours. God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come. He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come. Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age.
This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments. The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold.
It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity.
That sums up much of the error in traditional orthodoxy in one simple sentence. God doesn't intend to save all people in this physical life we have. But He does intend to save all people throughout the ages to come.
I don't understand your point. If you are saying Romans 8:20 is not referring to creation (ie. including all humans), I don't see it...
Are you saying Romans 8:20 is only referring to "nature"?
Or are you saying Romans 8:20 is only referring to some subset of humans, because 2 Cor 5:17 uses the word "creature" (ie. those who are a "new" creation")?
KJV says:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Clearly it is humans who have been subjected to VANITY. All humans are vain. And likewise, it is these same humans who will be delivered from this bondage and corruption. That's what it says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Sound all-inclusive to me.
In fact it sounds a lot like Colossian 1:20
"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth or in heaven."
Inanimate objects don't need reconciling.
Only all fallen creatures need reconciling.
I understand that "heavens" is in the plural the Greek, which to me makes it mean that reconciliation will include all fallen creatures on earth and everywhere else too.
Yep, and it sounds allot like ...
Act 3:21
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything("apokatastaseOs pantOn"), as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
and again ...
Eph 1:10
for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.
Yeah, sounds fairly inclusive to me ... Universal reconciliation and or the restitution of all things is the promise of God given to the prophets that all things will be restored, all things brought together to find their one head in Christ. All things in heaven and in earth and under the earth, will bow and confess Christ is lord. All people of every nation will turn to God and worship him and sing his name and bless him and honor him and glorify him.
What a glorious day that will be ... Peace.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-07-2010 at 03:00 PM..
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Inanimate objects don't need reconciling.
