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So "the way to be saved" ... Isn't that oxymoronic? Why not just say "how to save yourself"?
If it's your choice to save yourself by believing what you are told. Why mince words and say, "the way to be saved"?
I know exactly where you're coming from Ironmaw.
There is no such a thing as "a better chance."
What good would a "better" chance be than a "poorer" chance.
Our will doesn't choose because it has a "chance" to choose.
Our will chooses because we respond to whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind to choose.
Until God lays hold on us by His sovereign grace everyone will remain in the condition of Romans 3: 10-18.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-03-2010 at 07:54 PM..
Reason: spelling
If one would take a logical look into it, setting people on fire for eternity for WHATEVER reason is not order and it is NOT justice.
Even a child could understand this.
I don't believe that God would bring about the salvation of his creatures any differently than he would go about creating order in general. He would NOT leave it to CHANCE!
("Oh, darn. Timmy didn't get there in time to save Suzy from that horrific car crash, and she didn't believe in me, and I had no way of knowing ('cause I'm not all knowing) she would die without believing in me and I was hoping (hoping, 'cause I'm not really in control) someone would get there to save her. I guess I'm going to have to set her on fire for eternity."
That is chaos, not order. )
I agree with you herefornow.
God would not leave the salvation of any of His creatures to "chance."
It is not by being given a “chance” that we exercise saving faith.
For by grace are you saved through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. It is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8,9.
Faith is a mental good work. Therefore it cannot have any saving merit and it cannot “qualify” us to receive salvation. God will grant saving faith to every individual when HE ALONE wants them to have it.
Salvation is by GRACE plus nothing. Faith is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause of it since effectual faith that actually successfully accomplishes our personal salvation is GOD’S GIFT.
Believing that our faith is a product of our superior better judgment leads to boasting in the flesh for achieving our salvation and an attitude of condemnation towards others to whom God has not yet made Jesus "choice" in their heart.
Faith is a mental good work. Therefore it cannot have any saving merit and it cannot “qualify” us to receive salvation. God will grant saving faith to every individual when HE ALONE wants them to have it.
Salvation is by GRACE plus nothing. Faith is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause of it since effectual faith that actually successfully accomplishes our personal salvation is GOD’S GIFT.
Believing that our faith is a product of our superior better judgment leads to boasting in the flesh for achieving our salvation and an attitude of condemnation towards others to whom God has not yet made Jesus "choice" in their heart.
For the most part, I agree with everything here. Great post! .
However, I differ in one area that I feel is of importance if we are to have a correct (or deeper?) understanding of the Gospel: Faith, being a gift of God, is the instrument God uses to unite us to Christ, thereby imputing His Righteousness to us (Rom 4:5). However, this faith which is given to us from God, does not actually "accomplish" our salvation, or rather it does not actually justify us before God. Faith bears witness to our spirit that we are Justified by Christ alone, by His death on the cross for our sins. It is Jesus alone who "accomplishes" this great work of salvation on our behalf, as proclaimed in the Gospel. Faith brings that wonderful knowledge of truth (Christ's work) to light.
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
I also agree with you that ALL will, at some point in time, come to this full knowledge of the truth.
Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts and comments on the word of God!
For the most part, I agree with everything here. Great post! .
However, I differ in one area that I feel is of importance if we are to have a correct (or deeper?) understanding of the Gospel: Faith, being a gift of God, is the instrument God uses to unite us to Christ, thereby imputing His Righteousness to us (Rom 4:5). However, this faith which is given to us from God, does not actually "accomplish" our salvation, or rather it does not actually justify us before God. Faith bears witness to our spirit that we are Justified by Christ alone, by His death on the cross for our sins. It is Jesus alone who "accomplishes" this great work of salvation on our behalf, as proclaimed in the Gospel. Faith brings that wonderful knowledge of truth (Christ's work) to light.
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
I also agree with you that ALL will, at some point in time, come to this full knowledge of the truth.
Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts and comments on the word of God!
Thank you for sharing your insight Alabama.
I agree with you. We are saved by Jesus Christ ALONE.
The point I was trying to make is that I believe that we WILL USE the instrument of faith in Jesus for our salvation WHEN God gives it to us.
I don't believe it is possible TO NOT use the instrument of faith in Jesus for our salvation when God gives it to us.
I believe that God will influence the first fruits of election (the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation) to use the instrument of faith to trust in Jesus for their salvation.
Then, all of the non-elect will be saved later.
If everything is predestined anyway, what difference does it make what people believe?
I can't understand why those that believe in ET are so pedantic towards the beliefs of those that believe in UR, as well as towards those of other faiths and/or deists/agnostics/atheists.
If everything is predestined, then all is going according to God's plan anyway, so what's the problem, and why so much arguing about it?
"pedantic" (narrow minded) - I had to look that one up.
It's a thought provoking question Alison, and I'm surprised no one has responded to it yet.
First of all I think only Calvinist ETers believe in predestination so your question would be directed only to them.
Perhaps Calvinist ETers argue so much about it because they want to try to get as many other people to believe in eternal torment predestination as they can.
Why?
I really don't know.
Maybe it gives them a greater sense of security if they can persuade others to believe in eternal torment predestination.
Hoo nose eh?
Unless I'm mistaken though, most ETers are theologically Arminian, which is an entirely different perception.
The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.
It’s as if the god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian eternal tormentor relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.
It’s as if the god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love!”
Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race totally depraved and unable to choose correctly (Calvinist)!!
Thank God a correctly (literally not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach such insane ideas!
Me? I guess you could call me a Calvinistic Universalist.
The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
URs will probably love to read it; ETers? not so much.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-17-2010 at 07:26 PM..
Reason: addition
"One can only avoid boasting in self by truly ceasing to believe things and say things that are inherently of a boastful nature.
It is only the word of the cross that effectively and wisely trains us in this true humility so that “if anyone is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting,” as Paul says.
It is an empty gesture to go through the motions of giving all the glory to God, while at the same time continually believing that good decisions and acts are things which ultimately owe their existence to one’s own self, ---
May He enlighten us to see truly that it is “in the grace of God that I am what I am.” (end of quote)
This is a small portion of Jim's enlightening exposition called
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE
The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
I think URs will very much enjoy reading it!
ETers who think they are masters of their own fate probably won't like it.
God certainly did choose those who whould be receiving age-during life.
Rom 8:30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also."
Do you notice the progression of events in the verse above? He designated beforehand, before the disruption of the world in Genesis 1:2, who would believe. Then He calls them into salvation. Then He justifies them then He glorifies them. Notice there is no doubt in His mind as to the divine order of what will occur? Notice whom He designated beforehand will be glorified by him as well? Also . . .
Rom 9:16 "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."
Say this 100 times: "It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
"It is not of him who is willing"
Where does free will come in if salvation is not of him who is willing?
Free willers insist that salvation IS of him who is willing.
I agree with Eusebius. And we both agree with the Bible.
A "CHANCE" TO REJECT GOD?
Does anyone really think that God gave Saul of Tarsus and Nebukadnezar a "chance" to reject Him?
Through what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, by the power in the blood of His cross, sooner or later, the same God who successfully influenced those two reprobates will also successfully influence everyone else who needs saving from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Tell me, you folk who "chose" Jesus, why do you think you did that?
I'm not following what your trying to tell me. It isn't my love for the Creator or the Son? What does that mean?
Plus, I think we've already proven that The ET person will not rejoice if UR is true. We've already seen many posts from ET'ers that they said they would rejoice over the eternal suffering of the unbelievers. They are getting what they deserve according to the ETer.
I am an ETer and i would rejoice if UR were true...However i will not believe in something just because i would like to see it that way...I see it the way it really is and i have no roght to question God or His plans...
Salvation by predestination proves error by the revelation of Holy Spirit , so all this calvinism doctrine is proved error .... Lord Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, taking the honor that Adam had lost and therefor Jesus proves worthy to save all people who turn to him and Clean their heart for the fruit of the Spirit will be guarenteed saved.....so all literal ideas need to be examined through Holy Spirit
You do not know what you are talking about...You should actually study it for yourself instead of parroting what someone wrote in a book...
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Not by being given a “chance”
) 
Justified by christ alone
"why so much arguing about it?"
For those who think they were given a "chance"
