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Your post is just TOO LONG and those HUGE PIXAL PHOTOS MUCH.
But anyway I will just PASTE BACK a few potions of your comments as answering my questions for...WHY DO WE HAVE OR NEED THESE ??
You made a large number of claims, without any references to support them. I have provided counter-arguments supported by detailed references. If you think my posts are too long, make fewer claims in the future.
You claimed that the columns in St. Peter’s resemble snakes and dragons. I provided pictures to show that is mistaken. Again a counter-argument supported by documentation. You talked about appearances. I provided pictures.
Quote:
----your posting----
Early Christians deliberately avoided having statues in churches exactly because the Romans did have them. Symbols had long been used in churches but no representations of peoples. Murals, mosaics and reliefs gradually began appearing in churches in Constantinople after 400 but they were executed in Eastern (Byzantine) style, not Roman style.
Real Christian statues do not appear until the 7th century in Ireland (where the Romans never went), the 8th century at the court of Charlemagne in France and in the 10th century at the court of Emperor Otto in Germany.
---my reply---
Thanks for admitting ...No Statues of living or dead were used in Pre-Catholicism Christianity and totally avoided even in early Catholicism from this post?? It does ask WHY EVOLVE TO STATUES?? IF it had a Pagan connotation to early Christians?
As I pointed out much earlier and later documented, representational art in Christianity derived from Greek influences, not Roman as you claimed. And statues were forbidden for a long time, because the Romans used them. Christianity did not use statues until hundreds of years after the Roman temples were shut down by Constantine. And the custom started in Ireland far from Roman influence and only slowly spread. I have documented all of that. What we think of today as religious statuary – statues of religious figures situated inside churches – did not begin until about 1400. (Ref)
Are statues inherently pagan? Is democracy pagan? That originally came from the Greeks. Are altars pagan? They used them before even Judaism existed. Look at Deuteronomy 12. Only one single altar is allowed, in Jerusalem. Lots of churches of all denominations have altars. Should they get rid of them?
Quote:
---your post----
You had no REAL REPLY TO THE repetitions on the Rosary?? So many times?? You say the Psalms were? Nothing like how many times in the a Rosary. You DID NOT REPLY TO THIS VERSE...AS TO WHAT ABOUT IT IS NOT CLEAR??
---- Matt 6:7 And in your prayer do not make use of the same words again and again, as the Gentiles do: for they have the idea that God will give attention to them because of the number of their words.
--Basic English Bible
I merely used the verse in this version. Because it did not use the word ..repetitions, as in most Bibles, instead --same words...
You went to say the LITURGY has no Repetition. I DID NOT MENTION THE LITURGY IN MY POST.
As I made clear, the repetition of the prayers in the rosary came from an attempt to imitate the clergy who are obligated to read the 150 Psalms every day. Because most people were illiterate they substituted repetition of prayers they knew by heart. The rosary was a way of structuring that and keeping count. The repetition did not derive from any Roman practices.
You seem to want to turn this conversation into ‘what is wrong with Catholicism’. You started with specific claims about Roman influences on Christianity. I have addressed those and that is all I am dealing with. I have no need to justify Catholic practices. I am only concerned with facts and your claims are not factual.
Quote:
---your reply---
The obelisk symbolized the sun god Ra, and during the brief religious reformation of Akhenaten was said to be a petrified ray of the Aten, the sundisk. It was also thought that the god existed within the structure. Pairs of phallic symbols? And do not forget that the biggest obelisk of all time is the WashingtonMonument, honoring the first President of the US. No wonder they call him Father of the Country!
----my reply---- Thanks for admitting the OBBELISK is a phallic symbol and symbolized the Sun god Ra. (Note again the SUN used in pagan worship)? But the Washington Monument does not represent TRUE RELIGION OR FAITH? Most credit the Masons for its utilization? Masons some give dubious attributes to? The OBELISK right in the VATICAN is MAKING IT YOUR RELIGIOUS SYMBOL.
I see you did not even read the documentation I provided showing that the obelisk is not a phallic symbol but derives from other considerations. As far as moving an obelisk to the center of St. Peter’s square as a decoration during a general cleanup of Rome does not make it a religious symbol. That is really a stretch. This obelisk had originally been moved from Egypt to Rome by the Emperor Augustus as a trophy of having conquered Egypt. (Ref) Augustus worshipped the Roman pantheon headed by Jupiter. (Ref) The cult of Sol Invictus was a couple of centuries in the future, imported from Syria, not Egypt. (Ref) Since serious Egyptology did not egin until the 19the ceniry (Ref) Pope Sixtus V in the16th century would not have had the slightest notion of the religious background of the obelisk.
Quote:
----your post----
Pontifex, from which Pontiff derives, simply means high priest in Latin. They spoke Latin in ancient Rome. No surprises here.
----my reply---
This is ALL??? You had to say on adoption or use of title of PONTIFF as HIGH PRIEST IN CATHOLICISM VS the HIGHEST Office of the Pagan Roman Religion CALLED HIGH PRIEST first? .... and was also called PONTIFF. ---I'd say you then admit this is true^^^^
But JESUS IS OUR HIGH IN THE NEW TESTEMENT Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. This a final word for Jesus for us Fulfilled the Temples Sacrificial System. JESUSAs Our FINAL HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVEN AND ONLY MEDIATOR FOR GOD.[/QUOTE
---your post-----
Well you merely said of Mariology? I didn't go into but a mention Mary as a Mediatrix
But I posted this verse--1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
----I SURELY STAND BY THE VERSES THAT TEACH ...JESUS ONLY MEDIATOR AND AS OUR HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVEN FULLFILLS ANY OTHER HIGH PRIEST ON EARTH
Yes, that is all that is needed. Religions usually have priests. Pontiff derives from pontifex which means priest in Latin. The Roman Catholic church started in Rome where they spoke Latin.
Again you seem to want to turn this into a debate on the merits of Catholic theology. Not interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeps
As for the Solomonic Columns of your picture. My eyes went to something else?? The GiantSun in front of the columns.
To me it is a prime example of SUN WORSHIP aspects that got adopted into evolving Catholicism.
To me its a bit more then merely coincidence.
SORRY BUT I SEE MORE SYMBOLS PAGANLIKE THEN NOT?
As for anymore replies by me??? THERE WILL BE NO MORE.
Here is a close-up of the main altar.
Not the sun but the Holy Spirit, just as in the Baptism of Jesus in Mark 1:10 “ And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.”
Here is an even closer close-up. It is a stained glass window. That is daylight behind it.
Sorry, no sun worship at St. Peter’s. Unless of course stained glass windows imply sun worship.
And judging by what you said just above, I guess this is the end of the conversation.
If you read more into the scripture you will understand that it was not the object that held power. But the faith of the individual healed. As with Jesus healing the child without contact he just commanded it.
In Mark 5 which I quoted above, Jesus did not even know who had touched him. It may have been faith that did the healing but it certainly appears that the garment of Jesus played an important role in mediating that healing. Jesus did not directly perform the cure. He was not even immediately aware it happened.
In Acts 19 we see the sick being cured by touching garments of Paul even when Paul was not present. Again faith may have been what did the healing but the garment of Paul was an important mediator. Paul himself was not the direct agent as he was not even present or knew it was happening.
Quote:
Acts 19
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.
The relics of saints may not have had any magical power in them. But the belief in objects associated with holy people being important is definitely scriptural.
In Mark 5 which I quoted above, Jesus did not even know who had touched him. It may have been faith that did the healing but it certainly appears that the garment of Jesus played an important role in mediating that healing. Jesus did not directly perform the cure. He was not even immediately aware it happened.
In Acts 19 we see the sick being cured by touching garments of Paul even when Paul was not present. Again faith may have been what did the healing but the garment of Paul was an important mediator. Paul himself was not the direct agent as he was not even present or knew it was happening.
The relics of saints may not have had any magical power in them. But the belief in objects associated with holy people being important is definitely scriptural.
The scripture states Jesus was aware.
Every examole the bible Luke 8:43-48King James Version (KJV)
43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
This story is a good example of faith. Pay attention to the disciples. They say everyone is touching you.
But Jesus did not mean physically. He meant in Spirit. Another example is the soldiers servant. Matthew 8:5-13King James Version (KJV)
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
The power comes from believing. All you have to do is believe. An object lesson in Elijah using a tattered cloth to split the sea. Or a staff used by Moses does not constitute the objects power. It is the person that is ordained by God. If people need an icon to have faith, how strong is there faith? As the centurion was commended by Jesus for his faith.
Another subject about prayers. Is asking multitudes to pray for one thing. How little is your faith. Do you ask many to pray because you believe it will have more sway than just you asking.
I say if the Holy Spirit guides you ask others to pray to help their faith grow. So that they can witness the power of prayer. King James Bible
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."
If people need an icon to have faith, how strong is there faith?
Who decided people "need" icons to have faith?
Catholics certainly don't. Their faith in God is there with or without icons, pictures of the Holy Family, statues, rosaries, Bernini's columns or the crucifix over the altar.
Catholics certainly don't. Their faith in God is there with or without icons, pictures of the Holy Family, statues, rosaries, Bernini's columns or the crucifix over the altar.
Hope this subject hasn't already been addressed. I looked back through the forum and couldn't find any mention of how Christians regard Mary. I ask this question since there is considerable difference of opinion on who Mary is in the faith of Christians. As a former Baptist, I basically ignored Mary other than when she is mentioned at Christmas. But we were taught that the Catholics prayed to Mary and put her up as equal to Jesus. I have come to understand that this is not correct. When I converted to Lutheran, the Virgin Mary was mentioned a lot more especially during the holy Eucharist. Mary is acknowledged in the creed, during the prayer when the holy communion is blessed by the pastor and recently one Sunday was devoted to the Virgin Mary. It was during this service last month that Mary was identified as the Mother of God and ever virgin.
How do other Christians view Mary? Is is wrong to ask Mary to pray for us? Are Catholics wrong in venerating Mary? Are some Protestants wrong for disregarding Mary? Is is biblical to honor Mary? Thanks and I look forward to the feedback.
I was raised in the Assemblies. The way I understand, people aren't supposed to pray to anybody other than the Trinity (Father/Son/HolySpirit). Mary is not part of the Trinity. Neither is Joseph. Therefore it is wrong to worship Mary. Respect her yes.
This story is a good example of faith. Pay attention to the disciples. They say everyone is touching you.
But Jesus did not mean physically. He meant in Spirit. Another example is the soldiers servant. Matthew 8:5-13King James Version (KJV)
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
The power comes from believing. All you have to do is believe. An object lesson in Elijah using a tattered cloth to split the sea. Or a staff used by Moses does not constitute the objects power. It is the person that is ordained by God. If people need an icon to have faith, how strong is there faith? As the centurion was commended by Jesus for his faith.
To get saved or healed we need faith, that is right. But without the anointing there is no healing. there was the anointing in Jesus "cicit" or in Paul's handkerchief or in Peter's shadow. But there is no anointing nor power or Jesus or Mary or any saint in religious objects that are used to contact the spiritual world, God has forbidden that and they that do it are transgressing, they can try to legalise it as much as they want.
Catholics certainly don't. Their faith in God is there with or without icons, pictures of the Holy Family, statues, rosaries, Bernini's columns or the crucifix over the altar.
Some people have a problem with faith. Thomas wanted to see, Jesus said, that they are blessed that have faith without seeing. The Isralites in the wilderness had the same problem. You think Aaron did not believe in the God of Israel when he made the golden calve? They wanted an object, a relict to address their God, who was invisible, so the golden calve was what came out, so they thought that was how their God looks like. They had no bad intentions at all. And Aaron had also an exuse why he did it. The people wanted it.
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