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So what you are saying is that it is better to leave the ignorant alone in the darkness of a lie.
I am with you pinacled, Hes tells us that we have to warn the sinner, otherwise we are quilty. If they do not listen, it is their fault. I am not coming against Catholics, I tell them that to bow down before images is a sin of idolatry. That is all. Why do they get so abset? If they are right and I am wrong, go on in your believe, what they do anyway. But this is a forum in the 21 century and not in the middle ages, where they would burn us at the stake. Praise God they have lost their wordly power. We have to stand what we think is the truth and back it up with scripture. Not every Catholic bows down before statues. There is nothing wrong to honor Mary. The way they do it is wrong. Their faith in Mary is wrong. Faith in Jesus only counts. In the case of Janelle, she is the one preaching in this OP, I think I remember that she has a big statue with a snake under her feed in her livingroom, which she imagines is the mother of Jesus. And I am convinced that she bows down before that image. In that light all the arguments about prayer and worship and asking for intercession are meaningless, they want to sidetrack us.
I didn't get that. May I ask what religion you come from? Many religions teach praying is worshiping and in other religions praying isn't necessarily worshiping. Praying to saints is NEVER worshiping, praying to God is.
I guess we have to agree to disagree.
hi Janelle
I read your thought how praying isn't necessarily worshiping and praying to saints is never worship. What are your thoughts on...
The definitions of worship are:
- the act of showing respect and love for a godespecially by praying with other people who believe in the same god, the act of worshipping God or a god, excessive admiration for someone.
The definition of prayer is:
Prayer is an act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication.
So referencing both definitions against each other do you still think that praying isn't worshiping? You mentioned some religions teach one thing but other teach another but we both agree the bible says there would be false teachers so who is correct? What does the bible, which I think we can both agree is what we should reference for truth, have to say?
God shows early in the bible at Exodus 34:14 and Exodus 20:4-5 we have one God we should worship and even says he's a jealous God where to bow down, worship (or prayer) to anyone or anything is idolatry and he hates. Some even make the mistake of praying to Jesus but at 1 Tim 2:5 it shows Jesus is our mediator in which forgiveness is possible, but we pray through him but direct our prayers ONLY to God almighty. So how do both angels and even one who many call a saint feel about this?
Bibles thought on angel worship Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind."
Angels response being worshiped at Rev 19:10 "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."
Notice Peter's, who ones reference as a saint, response when Cornelius tried to bow at Acts 10:25-27 "As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Last edited by MichaelDante; 09-27-2014 at 07:28 AM..
I am with you pinacled, Hes tells us that we have to warn the sinner, otherwise we are quilty. If they do not listen, it is their fault. I am not coming against Catholics, I tell them that to bow down before images is a sin of idolatry. That is all. Why do they get so abset? If they are right and I am wrong, go on in your believe, what they do anyway. But this is a forum in the 21 century and not in the middle ages, where they would burn us at the stake. Praise God they have lost their wordly power. We have to stand what we think is the truth and back it up with scripture. Not every Catholic bows down before statues. There is nothing wrong to honor Mary. The way they do it is wrong. Their faith in Mary is wrong. Faith in Jesus only counts. In the case of Janelle, she is the one preaching in this OP, I think I remember that she has a big statue with a snake under her feed in her livingroom, which she imagines is the mother of Jesus. And I am convinced that she bows down before that image. In that light all the arguments about prayer and worship and asking for intercession are meaningless, they want to sidetrack us.
Ezekiel. ch 3 vs 17- A Watchman for Israel
…17"Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.…
hi Janelle
I read your thought how praying isn't necessarily worshiping and praying to saints is never worship. What are your thoughts on...
The definitions of worship are:
- the act of showing respect and love for a godespecially by praying with other people who believe in the same god, the act of worshipping God or a god, excessive admiration for someone.
The definition of prayer is:
Prayer is an act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication.
So referencing both definitions against each other do you still think that praying isn't worshiping?
Not to speak for the lovely Janelle , but the answer to the question is in your own response!
"Prayer is an act of deliberate communication"
Prayer is NOT always worship!
It is sometimes worship of God, but it is sometimes just communicating with him - sharing our concerns and gaining discernment from his voice in our hearts
Not to speak for the lovely Janelle , but the answer to the question is in your own response!
"Prayer is an act of deliberate communication"
Prayer is NOT always worship!
It is sometimes worship of God, but it is sometimes just communicating with him - sharing our concerns and gaining discernment from his voice in our hearts
Thanks for your response however please respond again as to how that applies to the original point being made as I am not clear of the connection I apologize.
Your comment touches on prayer to God which was not the subject of this thread nor what I responded about. I absolutely agree our communication with God can be varied to share our concerns, gain discernment, ask forgiveness, etc but that was not the intent of my response.
What was discussed was if it was appropriate to pray to saints and mary which going by scriptures reference and my last comment would be considered improper or worship. The bible is actually VERY CLEAR that our prayers ONLY go to God, with no exception and even Jesus as mediator informed us as well. By ones praying to saints, mary, or angels they unknowingly are displeasing God.
God is a jealous God expecting EXCLUSIVE devotion. His Son, angels and even his disciples like Peter refused such worship or undue attention.
Thanks for your response however please respond again as to how that applies to the original point being made as I am not clear of the connection I apologize.
Your comment touches on prayer to God which was not the subject of this thread nor what I responded about. I absolutely agree our communication with God can be varied to share our concerns, gain discernment, ask forgiveness, etc but that was not the intent of my response.
What was discussed was if it was appropriate to pray to saints and mary which going by scriptures reference and my last comment would be considered improper or worship. The bible is actually VERY CLEAR that our prayers ONLY go to God, with no exception and even Jesus as mediator informed us as well. By ones praying to saints, mary, or angels they unknowingly are displeasing God.
God is a jealous God expecting EXCLUSIVE devotion. His Son, angels and even his disciples like Peter refused such worship or undue attention.
My friend, I just do not have the time or energy to continue trying to help here.
You are determined to base your entire understanding of God on one literal interpretation of the Bible, and that's fine, really!
But as has been stated numerous times now, Catholics do not rely on the Bible alone for our understanding. We incorporate sacred traditions into our study - the things Jesus taught or spoke about that did not always make it into the Bible.
No non-fundamentalist here is ever going to be able to give you an answer you will find satisfactory.
What Catholic do does not make sense to you, and again, that's okay, but just accept it and move on ok?
There just isn't anything more we can tell you than has already been said.
My friend, I just do not have the time or energy to continue trying to help here.
You are determined to base your entire understanding of God on one literal interpretation of the Bible, and that's fine, really!
But as has been stated numerous times now, Catholics do not rely on the Bible alone for our understanding. We incorporate sacred traditions into our study - the things Jesus taught or spoke about that did not always make it into the Bible.
No non-fundamentalist here is ever going to be able to give you an answer you will find satisfactory.
What Catholic do does not make sense to you, and again, that's okay, but just accept it and move on ok?
There just isn't anything more we can tell you than has already been said.
To be fair you responded to a question I asked someone else so basically you invited yourself to my question/ discussion. Catholic life seems very confusing.
Well because you admitted you have no satisfactory answer being a Catholic I will ignore your previous comment. Have a good weekend.
To be fair you responded to a question I asked someone else so basically you invited yourself to my question/ discussion. Catholic life seems very confusing.
Well because you admitted you have no satisfactory answer being a Catholic I will ignore your previous comment. Have a good weekend.
You too MichaelDante!
And correction...I have had many "satisfactory answers" you just haven't liked or agreed with them lol.
But again, it is my experience that there is no way to ever "satisfy" the fundamentalists who continue to believe they are alway right and anyone else is always wrong.
My friend, I just do not have the time or energy to continue trying to help here.
You are determined to base your entire understanding of God on one literal interpretation of the Bible, and that's fine, really!
But as has been stated numerous times now, Catholics do not rely on the Bible alone for our understanding. We incorporate sacred traditions into our study - the things Jesus taught or spoke about that did not always make it into the Bible.
No non-fundamentalist here is ever going to be able to give you an answer you will find satisfactory.
What Catholic do does not make sense to you, and again, that's okay, but just accept it and move on ok?
There just isn't anything more we can tell you than has already been said.
Another level-headed, polite, very appropriate answer from you lovesMountains. I'm always impressed.
And correction...I have had many "satisfactory answers" you just haven't liked or agreed with them lol.
But again, it is my experience that there is no way to ever "satisfy" the fundamentalists who continue to believe they are alway right and anyone else is always wrong.
I never said I haven't liked what you said but yes there is truth I do not agree but I have remained respectful while others become bitter. But isn't that what this forum is for... discussion of points and thoughts and in a Christian forum usually scriptures are involved, I hope you understand that part.
I will not label you as unsatisfactory if you don't label me a fundamentalist who believes I'm always right and everyone always wrong as you've never read me say as such nor should I be identified by the conduct of others.
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, but the answer to the question is in your own response!
