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So may I ask a question? What scriptures do you reference or use in your understanding that Jesus wants us to honor his mother for the role she played as basically the vessel from which God used?
Well, in the first place, "honor your mother..." is one of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:12) and as a good Jewish boy, then man, Jesus always honored her. Seeking to follow his example in all things Catholics honor her too.
But even from the cross the Bible "When Jesus therefore had seen His Mother and the disciple standing whom He loved, He saith to His Mother: ‘Woman, behold thy son...’” (John 19:25-27).
In Hebrew the word used by Jesus, "Woman", was a term which would be used to address a queen or a woman of high rank. It showed great respect.
Again, Catholics believe we are simply following Jesus's example with our own veneration of Mary
LOL I tell anyone I have no idea what Catholics believe since I never was raised in how they interpret things. However one thing is certain... when people use bible scriptures to guide their lives and to get answers to questions it's never let me down yet. But when going off only traditions of men or opinion we are sure to fall short on understanding.
So you don't know what Catholics believe and, I'd guess, you've never been to a Mass, yet you're on a thread stating, basically, "Well, they do it wrong and they don't give Jesus His due." Okie dokie.
p.s. There's a reason MILLIONS of Catholics name their sons Jesus.
Well, in the first place, "honor your mother..." is one of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:12) and as a good Jewish boy, then man, Jesus always honored her. Seeking to follow his example in all things Catholics honor her too.
But even from the cross the Bible "When Jesus therefore had seen His Mother and the disciple standing whom He loved, He saith to His Mother: ‘Woman, behold thy son...’” (John 19:25-27).
In Hebrew the word used by Jesus, "Woman", was a term which would be used to address a queen or a woman of high rank. It showed great respect.
Again, Catholics believe we are simply following Jesus's example with our own veneration of Mary
Honor it says your mother and father, what you said would be true but does not the same scripture as well as Eph 6:2 also state your father? So if it is applicable for Mary why not his earthly father? Now you can say well Jesus had one father which you would be correct however could it not be said Jesus never had a mother either since he had lived before, Mary was only the vessel chosen by God for his birth. Mary was not a supreme being in heaven but an earthly woman. Also, does it state honor or worship? You can then say well we just honor her but is that really the case when millions worship her and its not just respect.
I have no doubt Jesus honored his mother, why even on his torture stake he ask John to take care of his mother. Why didn't he ask his brothers and sisters instead? Because he knew John would take care of her spiritual as well as financial and other needs as well so he still showed honor to his mother even at death.
I'm not questioning how you term "woman" however you say it showed great respect, once again I do not question Jesus showed his mother great respect but never does he say to worship her. Don't you think if the bible is to set things straight on proper service as mentioned at 2 Tim 3:16 he would have left NO DOUBT to worship or hold Mary in high esteem for ALL? God is clear on how to worship him and if Mary was an important factor in our prayers do you not think God would have put to scriptures? Please provide more scriptural proof that directly speaks of our worship to Mary. Since the bible as I mentioned is for teaching, this is a great way for others to see your point backed by scriptures. I can also share scriptures as well.
Now you say Catholics believe they are simply following Jesus example but to which scriptures or words are they getting such info? What do you think of my responses regarding scriptures that seem to indicate raising anyone to undue honor is idolatry? I know some will get upset, and I mean not to offend, but to truly understand scripture one must not be lead by passion only, one must truly search the bible and ask for direction only then are we lead to how Jesus and God thinks on matters.
Once again I appreciate you talking with me in a civil way, as you perfectly alluded to that is the only way ones can learn, be corrected and appreciate one another.
So you don't know what Catholics believe and, I'd guess, you've never been to a Mass, yet you're on a thread stating, basically, "Well, they do it wrong and they don't give Jesus His due." Okie dokie.
p.s. There's a reason MILLIONS of Catholics name their sons Jesus.
Did you read the OP also asked the question to Christians as well? It's my response as someone who is as such, I do not speak for Catholics nor have I alluded or said directly I speak for them. If so, please direct me to those statements I made so I can correct.
No I've never been to a mass and once again the OP asked from a Christian perspective based on the bible, how has any of my responses not been backed by scripture? Even in my thoughts I include scriptures so these are not just my words but based on Gods word the bible. While I answered the OP's answer using the bible it's up to each one to discern if something is right or wrong based on the bible since we all are accountable for our actions. I am not the official mouthpiece of God nor am I worthy to carry Jesus sandal since I am a sinful man however I do have a responsibility to teach Gods word when someone asks which I simply did not just based on tradition or history but based off Gods word the bible.
One thing we can agree on... there are MILLIONS of guys named Jesus in CA and when I moved here I had to learn how to say it right. haha
Honor it says your mother and father, what you said would be true but does not the same scripture as well as Eph 6:2 also state your father? So if it is applicable for Mary why not his earthly father? Now you can say well Jesus had one father which you would be correct however could it not be said Jesus never had a mother either since he had lived before, Mary was only the vessel chosen by God for his birth. Mary was not a supreme being in heaven but an earthly woman. Also, does it state honor or worship? You can then say well we just honor her but is that really the case when millions worship her and its not just respect.
I have no doubt Jesus honored his mother, why even on his torture stake he ask John to take care of his mother. Why didn't he ask his brothers and sisters instead? Because he knew John would take care of her spiritual as well as financial and other needs as well so he still showed honor to his mother even at death.
I'm not questioning how you term "woman" however you say it showed great respect, once again I do not question Jesus showed his mother great respect but never does he say to worship her. Don't you think if the bible is to set things straight on proper service as mentioned at 2 Tim 3:16 he would have left NO DOUBT to worship or hold Mary in high esteem for ALL? God is clear on how to worship him and if Mary was an important factor in our prayers do you not think God would have put to scriptures? Please provide more scriptural proof that directly speaks of our worship to Mary. Since the bible as I mentioned is for teaching, this is a great way for others to see your point backed by scriptures. I can also share scriptures as well.
Now you say Catholics believe they are simply following Jesus example but to which scriptures or words are they getting such info? What do you think of my responses regarding scriptures that seem to indicate raising anyone to undue honor is idolatry? I know some will get upset, and I mean not to offend, but to truly understand scripture one must not be lead by passion only, one must truly search the bible and ask for direction only then are we lead to how Jesus and God thinks on matters.
Once again I appreciate you talking with me in a civil way, as you perfectly alluded to that is the only way ones can learn, be corrected and appreciate one another.
I appreciate your approach here too
Bottom line is this...The Catholic Church does not take its entire understanding of God from the Bible alone.
The Catholic Church does not adhere to "sola scriptura" (by scripture alone).
Sacred tradition is also incorporated in order to more fully grasp the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Bottom line is this...The Catholic Church does not take its entire understanding of God from the Bible alone.
The Catholic Church does not adhere to "sola scriptura" (by scripture alone).
Sacred tradition is also incorporated in order to more fully grasp the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for educating me. You've helped me learn so much about Catholics I've always been afraid to ask just like some others have questions on other religions/ sect/ etc. I just didn't want to start a thread that turns into bashing.
So Catholic teachings are more traditions mixed with scripture but not by scripture alone? Yeah I could see now why my stance on bible only or pressing too much scripturally would only go so far while discussing with Catholics or might even invoke passion since we're talking years of tradition.
While I will still always encourage all ones to use the bible as the ultimate source only I respect your personal decision. So I think we come to a agree to disagree moment so I will end it as friendly as possible. Please, to you and other Catholics, understand my responses and questions are truly meant to get your insight but discussion is two way so I also have thoughts to share as well and appreciate your patience.
Thank you for educating me. You've helped me learn so much about Catholics I've always been afraid to ask just like some others have questions on other religions/ sect/ etc. I just didn't want to start a thread that turns into bashing.
So Catholic teachings are more traditions mixed with scripture but not by scripture alone? Yeah I could see now why my stance on bible only or pressing too much scripturally would only go so far while discussing with Catholics or might even invoke passion since we're talking years of tradition.
While I will still always encourage all ones to use the bible as the ultimate source only I respect your personal decision. So I think we come to a agree to disagree moment so I will end it as friendly as possible. Please, to you and other Catholics, understand my responses and questions are truly meant to get your insight but discussion is two way so I also have thoughts to share as well and appreciate your patience.
Happy to try to help
Here's the thing, we aren't just talking "traditions" like going to Grandma's house for Christmas Eve
We are talking about "sacred traditions", the one's Jesus was involved with.
Some forms of tradition were actually denounced in scripture by Jesus. For example:
"And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3; see also Mark 7:8-9).
In this passage Jesus was condemning a particular Jewish practice of seemingly donating money to God while in reality sheltering it from being used to care for one’s parents.
Likewise, Jesus’s commandment to the Apostles at the end of Matthew’s gospel logically assumes the necessity of Sacred Tradition when he said,
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. (Matt. 28:19-20)
The Catholic view is, Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to write down everything he had taught them.
He simply commanded them to teach it!
In fact, we know that not everything Jesus taught was eventually committed to writing because John tells us so at the end of his gospel:
"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
One thing we can agree on... there are MILLIONS of guys named Jesus in CA and when I moved here I had to learn how to say it right. haha
If you're in Southern California treat yourself to a visit to the Mission San Juan Capistrano. It's a nice outing, the gardens are lovely, you'll be able to see to see what the inside of a Catholic church looks like (the Serra Chapel is beautiful) and their gift shop has books that explain the Catholic faith.
Here's the thing, we aren't just talking "traditions" like going to Grandma's house for Christmas Eve
We are talking about "sacred traditions", the one's Jesus was involved with.
Some forms of tradition were actually denounced in scripture by Jesus. For example:
"And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3; see also Mark 7:8-9).
In this passage Jesus was condemning a particular Jewish practice of seemingly donating money to God while in reality sheltering it from being used to care for one’s parents.
Likewise, Jesus’s commandment to the Apostles at the end of Matthew’s gospel logically assumes the necessity of Sacred Tradition when he said,
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. (Matt. 28:19-20)
The Catholic view is, Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to write down everything he had taught them.
He simply commanded them to teach it!
In fact, we know that not everything Jesus taught was eventually committed to writing because John tells us so at the end of his gospel:
"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
Thanks for clarifying, and I like the grandma house reference too. haha
The ironic thing about what you just did was backed up your points all with scriptures, as a Christian who tries to be a student of the bible yet still learning so much I appreciate that.
I think you said it best... some forms of traditions are denounced in scripture, I think we both can agree on that. See... we did agree on something else!
Question, you said "The Catholic view is, Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to write down everything he had taught them." So on those traditions that Catholic's believe, observe or take part of if not in the bible how can you be sure such things were actually passed down by the apostles that God approves and not just from ones who taught things the apostles knew God would not have approved? For example...
Jer 14:14 (NIV) "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds."
Eph 4:14-15 (Jer) Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practicing deceit. If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head.
Acts 20: 29-31 (Jer) "I know quite well that when I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks their will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them. So be on your guard..."
Understand I am NOT accusing anyone of anything however I am simply seeking to see how if ones know Gods word is inspired from God from whose inspiration are the traditions of the Catholic church not in the bible but taken from what source?
If you're in Southern California treat yourself to a visit to the Mission San Juan Capistrano. It's a nice outing, the gardens are lovely, you'll be able to see to see what the inside of a Catholic church looks like (the Serra Chapel) and their gift shop has books that explain the Catholic faith.
You know... I actually lived in San Diego and heading up to the Bay Area used to pass SJC and always wanted to go. I'm in the Bay Area now so it's hard to head south but thanks for the tips
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Please, to you and other Catholics, understand my responses and questions are truly meant to get your insight but discussion is two way so I also have thoughts to share as well and appreciate your patience.
