Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You asked where Catholic tradition came from. I gave you the answer.
1) Since I'm not inside the brain (or soul or spirit) of other people I have NO idea. The works of the Holy Spirit are WAY past my pay grade.
2) I think most people familiar with the Bible can pull out scripture they believe supports their argument. Whatever it is. Many non-Catholics are especially good at this when they're trying to tell the Catholics, "You're wrong."
3) Bonus answer: I try very hard to respect the faiths of other people. This world is FULL of people who don't respect the religious beliefs of their neighbor. I don't want to be one more person doing that. Especially considering the prejudice and discrimination I've seen people demonstrate when they think their neighbor's religion is "wrong".
Thanks for the laugh including the back and forth "you're wrong" since I remember an episode from I think Family Guy where someone asked for a baby poops book and the librarian says oh you want the catholic one titled that's pure evil coming out of you. haha
But seriously.. I understand the question may have been loaded but just trying to see your thoughts.
Last edited by MichaelDante; 09-25-2014 at 04:39 PM..
Catholic Church tradition, (since yes, it is centuries old) is multi-leveled, complex and not easily explained. The root of it is the Holy Spirit. That's why I gave that answer. (I was aiming for simple.)
Fair enough.
Whether praying to saints and Mary is valid comes down to whether the Roman Catholic Church is actually being led by the Holy Spirit or not. Taken as a whole throughout their history, how do they do with the litmus test that Christ himself gave us for these sorts of things?
Matthew 7 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
In the interests of good manners, I will forego listing any of the countless examples of the RCC behaving very wolf-like and producing bad fruit. The Church spends most of its history drunk with power, extremely corrupt and filled with debauchery at the highest levels in the Church. The Church has improved, but one must reconcile centuries of corruption and decadence with being the will of God in order for the RCC to have all of the authority they claim to have.
A better explanation for the practice of praying to saints: Both Eastern and Western Catholicism drew virtually all of their converts from pagans. There was a lot more cases of absorbing and adapting pagan practices and customs into Christianity than Catholics like to admit. In my opinion, praying to saints is a direct carry-over for early pagan converts who were accustomed to recognizing one supreme god (such as Zeus), but praying to countless lesser gods who had specialized influence over certain things: Fertility,war, hunting, crops, harvest, craftsmanship, etc.
The trouble with justifying the practice? It isn't just missing from the Bible, but it is repeatedly denounced. Just one such example:
Revelation 22:
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
And one more:
Luke 4: 8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.
Would the Holy Spirit truly inspire us to do things that are so blatantly opposite to prior inspiriation?
It really does puzzle me. Catholics refuse to call it "worship." Reverence and prayers to saints and Mary contain every conceivable feature of worship. If I have a dog, but refuse to admit that it's really a dog ... ultimately I still have a dog. And anyone pointing these things out is somehow being disrespectful of Mary?
I think it's hilarious how people are so adamant that THEIR way is the only way. If you are not into praying to the Virgin Mary or the Saints or the green leprechaun then that's great, but that does not mean that others that do are wrong. Get over yourself. People follow different religions and have different beliefs, and people should respect that.
If you think it is your "duty" to change people's beliefs and teach them what is right (meaning what you believe), then perhaps you should join one of those Islamic terrorists groups. Everyone has the right to pray to, worship, believe in whatever the heck they want, as long as it does not harm others and as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on everyone else.
Personally, unlike many I don't believe in worshiping the bible, I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, and I don't quote verses from it all the time, but it is not my place to tell people who do they shouldn't do it or that they are wrong. To each their own.
"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around, and please don't try to shove it down my throat".
Now you are feeling the Fire...
Be like Daniel walk with The lion and Meet God in the Flame of Your Soul.
I was raised catholic. Took communion and was even confirmed (though I didn't understand what that was supposed to symbolize).
Not long after I became agnostic, and then I became atheist. After traveling the US and meeting different people of different backgrounds I began to realize how different catholicism was from other christian denominations. I was surprised to find they didn't have "saints", that they didn't pray to Mary, and a host of other catholic norms I took for granted were not shared amongst other christian denominations. This furthered entrenched the idea that everything I was taught was BS.
It was all taught as fact, yet here are all these other christians that wholeheartedly disagreed with what I practiced, and would even go as far to say that I was sinning more.
I was baptized at birth (no choice), was forced to accept communion (too young to understand), and forced to be confirmed (again too young to understand). Yet it was all I had ever known, and could only assume that it was correct.
After realizing this, the question stood: If I was indoctrinated to believe all these things and accept them as fact, and given no alternatives, why would anyone else, of any other religion, have any reason not to believe their respective religions?
After realizing this, the question stood: If I was indoctrinated to believe all these things and accept them as fact, and given no alternatives, why would anyone else, of any other religion, have any reason not to believe their respective religions?
That is a absolutely logical question, I will keep that in mind even more so when talking with ones on this forum. It's part of the reason I left one Christian sect because they believed only that group would be saved and everyone else was evil and would die regardless of background. As you said some are so deep with their religion growing up in it its all they know and they simply cannot think any different the same as my old sect members did. Then ones change to atheist or agnostic because of frustration, hypocrisy of the church, lies, abuse, mental or emotional issues or maybe living in an area where freedom of religion is not allowed some people just will not let go of certain things. While I have my bible based beliefs ad faith and try to be respectful to ones with different beliefs its nice to be reminded.
God knows our hearts so, unlike man who likes to judge the outside of the cup, God will examine each of us and be fair and just. The bible says he does not want ANY to die but does say we need to get on spiritual meat not stick on milk which we learn by testing if we are in the right faith or beliefs. While people want to only paint God as a task master he is loving, kind, wise and just.
Last edited by MichaelDante; 09-25-2014 at 07:11 PM..
I have many catholic friends. we discuss our beliefs all the time. One did not know what a saint was. And still is confused. I tried to explain the RCC has patron saints. And I tried to explain that all followers of Christ are Saints. Another Spent his prayers and worship on angels. I have come to reconcile what I have seen in the world.
Its time to start fixing things.
Sometimes, regardless of the best efforts of some Catholic school teachers and/or parents, people misconstrue, misunderstand or misinterpret Catholic Church teachings
I have many catholic friends. we discuss our beliefs all the time. One did not know what a saint was. And still is confused. I tried to explain the RCC has patron saints. And I tried to explain that all followers of Christ are Saints. Another Spent his prayers and worship on angels. I have come to reconcile what I have seen in the world.
Its time to start fixing things.
Well your friends just proves what we have been saying, not all Catholics pray to saints and it is not a requirement.
It really does puzzle me. Catholics refuse to call it "worship." Reverence and prayers to saints and Mary contain every conceivable feature of worship. If I have a dog, but refuse to admit that it's really a dog ... ultimately I still have a dog. And anyone pointing these things out is somehow being disrespectful of Mary?
If you praise your dog for giving you pleasure and being a good companion, I would not say you worship your dog. But if I say, "yes you are worshiping your dog to say you like him so much and he is a good companion and you give him so much attention" I think you would eventually get mad at me for not understanding your real feelings for your dog. That is what you are doing when we tell you we do not worship Mary or the saints. You refuse to understand the relationship just as much as others telling you what you think, and are treating your dog as an idol.
You need to put yourself in others shoes for awhile.
If you praise your dog for giving you pleasure and being a good companion, I would not say you worship your dog. But if I say, "yes you are worshiping your dog to say you like him so much and he is a good companion and you give him so much attention" I think you would eventually get mad at me for not understanding your real feelings for your dog. That is what you are doing when we tell you we do not worship Mary or the saints. You refuse to understand the relationship just as much as others telling you what you think, and are treating your dog as an idol.
It isn't a very good comparison. Most people aren't placing themselves in a subservient role to their dog. They're not asking their dog for the miracle of forgiveness of sins or for any other miraculous intercession. I do not make a practice of saying "Hail Fido,Full of Grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among dogs .... pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death. Amen." when I'm trying to obtain forgiveness for my sins. The relationship between me and my dogs is in no way similar to a Catholic relationship to Mary.
I still fail to see the difference between Catholic "reverence" and prayers to Saints and worship. I actually do want to understand the distinction. But not to beat a dead horse, can you please tell me how veneration and prayers to saints and to Mary in any way differ from an ancient pagans praying to lesser gods. How is a Greek praying to Artemis for a successful hunting expedition different from a Catholic praying to Saint Hubertus for a successful hunting expedition? In both cases, the person praying fully recognizes that they being they are praying to is not the supreme being. The Greek isn't praying to Zeus, but recognizes the supremacy of Zeus. The Catholic isn't praying to God, but recognizes the supremacy of God. The Greek's behavior is acknowledged to be worship. The Catholic's behavior, though it is virtually identical, is not worship. How does that make any sense??
Quote:
You need to put yourself in others shoes for awhile.
I agree. I do not understand the veneration of saints and Mary because I wasn't raised in a religion that practices it. I do want to understand. It's just very difficult to wrap my head around.
I think if you are a devout Catholic you're just fine in the eyes of God. I don't agree with reverence of and praying to saints, but there are far too many other practices out there that Christianity cannot come to a consensus agreement on. If we are damned for being wrong on a few things then we are probably all damned. I believe God is a lot more merciful than that.
It isn't a very good comparison. Most people aren't placing themselves in a subservient role to their dog. They're not asking their dog for the miracle of forgiveness of sins or for any other miraculous intercession. I do not make a practice of saying "Hail Fido,Full of Grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among dogs .... pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death. Amen." when I'm trying to obtain forgiveness for my sins. The relationship between me and my dogs is in no way similar to a Catholic relationship to Mary.
I still fail to see the difference between Catholic "reverence" and prayers to Saints and worship. I actually do want to understand the distinction. But not to beat a dead horse, can you please tell me how veneration and prayers to saints and to Mary in any way differ from an ancient pagans praying to lesser gods. How is a Greek praying to Artemis for a successful hunting expedition different from a Catholic praying to Saint Hubertus for a successful hunting expedition? In both cases, the person praying fully recognizes that they being they are praying to is not the supreme being. The Greek isn't praying to Zeus, but recognizes the supremacy of Zeus. The Catholic isn't praying to God, but recognizes the supremacy of God. The Greek's behavior is acknowledged to be worship. The Catholic's behavior, though it is virtually identical, is not worship. How does that make any sense??
I agree. I do not understand the veneration of saints and Mary because I wasn't raised in a religion that practices it. I do want to understand. It's just very difficult to wrap my head around.
I think if you are a devout Catholic you're just fine in the eyes of God. I don't agree with reverence of and praying to saints, but there are far too many other practices out there that Christianity cannot come to a consensus agreement on. If we are damned for being wrong on a few things then we are probably all damned. I believe God is a lot more merciful than that.
Maybe saying it this way will help you...
There is but one God and Jesus is his son with a special mother named Mary.
All who have died in God's grace are now saints in heaven. See how they are all connected?
We have a name for this - The Communion of Saints, which includes the saints still living on this earth
Zeus was never real, he was a mythical god, so he really isn't worth our time. Furthermore, anyone who would have prayed to lessor god's under him was not attempting to connect TO him but separate from him.
And therein lies the difference in people who "pray" (talk to) the saints and those who worshipped mythical gods - one group was turning away from their god and the other group is turning TOWARD their God
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
