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Mike555 claims in post #1: If you have personally placed your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, you have received the free gift of eternal life and you can never lose it.
1) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ONE CANNOT LOSE SALVATION BASED ON A TEMPORARY ONE-TIME BELIEF
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Twin.spin responds in post #2: It's simply not so. Though the Bible speaks of eternal security to which I agree with you, Scripture also warns about losing faith.
This Christian theory, that a mere belief in God or in his son Jesus, trips a switch that entitles one to eternal bliss that can never be shut off by subsequent dis-belief, regardless of subsequent disobedience, or regardless of subsequent purely evil acts was heretical to the Early Christianities. The theory that one could bypass all other moral expectations and moral requirements (such as repentance and obedience) if one simply believe in Jesus caused great problems to the ancient Christians when Pagans and authentic Christian saw heretical results of an at least one version of an early “once saved and no other moral choice or action matters” type of social-moral irresponsible theology.
For example : Such heretical doctrines have attempted to take a man-made theological “short cut” to a heavenly reward; attempting to bypass the principle of repentance. One of the problems with such short-sightedness is that the same refusal to bypass repentance, affects other authentic religious principles such as love, patience, etc..
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“Now note well those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us; note how contrary they are to the mind of god. They have no concern for love; none for the widow, none for the orphan, none for the oppressed, none for the prisoner or the one released, none for the hungry or thirsty.” “They abstain from the Eucharist....Therefore those who deny the good gift of God perish in their contentiousness.” (Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans 6:2 and 7:1)
These early Christian heretics who taught the doctrine of “faith in Jesus, but good actions were unnecessary”, were described by Bishop Ignatius :
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“For there are some who maliciously and deceitfully are accustomed to carrying about the Name while doing other things unworthy of God. You must avoid them as wild beasts.” (Ignatius to the Ephesians 7:1)
Ignatius is NOT talking about Pagans, he is talking about Christian heretics.
2) In response to Mike555’s claim that : “It is true that the believer can lose faith. But losing faith is not losing eternal salvation”.
I believe trettep is quite correct regarding his point that a lack of faith in a prior Christian cannot save him or anyone else :
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Trettep in post #7 responding to Mike555s initial claim said : So if the believer has lost all of his faith he still receives salvation? Does that really make sense to you Mike? Faith is belief. If a believer has lost faith then the believe is no longer a believer. Faith = Belief, Belief = Faith.
Besides if the Faith is dead then can dead Faith save someone?
AlabamaStorm reminds to simply apply logic to the scripture used in examining the OP's claim :
If the believer loses faith (as you say), then your interpretation of John 3:36 contradicts your own words:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"Believeth not" is used in the present tense. Shall not "see" life is being used in the future tense.
There are many, many, historical examples supporting these point the posters have made.
For example : THERE WERE early Christians who lost their faith, and, though they kept the claim of being Christian, did not remain faithful to Christian moral principles in the early stages of the Christian movement. In fact, It was this very type of hypocrisy which caused early christianity to come under pagan criticism, once the Pagans saw the actions of certain Christians were not in harmony with the christian scriptures :
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“For the Lord says, “My name is continually blasphemed among all the nations.” And again, “Woe to him on whose account my name is blasphemed. Why is it blasphemed? Because you do not do what I desire. For when the pagans hear from our mouths the oracles of God, they marvel at their beauty and greatness. But when they discover that our actions are not worthy of the words we speak, they turn from wonder to blasphemy, saying that it is a myth and a delusion. (2nd Clement 13:2-3)
Not only was the heresy that “grace renders repentance unneeded” a false ancient Christian heresy, it caused the loss of critical gospel blessings : “....Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely …. (Early New Testament - Epistle of Barnabas 4:6)
Instead, the authentic early Christians taught CONSTANT FAITH and CONSTANT VIGILANCE and that personal choice and ACTIONS were important. They taught that we COULD fall from a claim to grace based SIMPLY upon the claim that “we are already justified” (because we believe in Jesus) :
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”9 Consequently, Let us be on guard in the last days, for he whole time of our faith will do us no good unless now, in the age of lawlessness, we resist as well the coming stumbling blocks, as befits God’s children , lest the black one find an opportunity to sneak in 10 Let us flee from every kind of vanity; let us hate completely the works of the evil way. Do not withdraw within yourselves and live alone, as though you were already justified, but gather together and seek out together the common good....11...strive to keep his commandments, that we may rejoice in his ordinances. 12 The Lord will judge the world without partiality. Each person will receive according to what he has done: if he is good, his righteousness will precede him; if he is evil, the wages of doing evil will go before him. 13 Let us never fall asleep in our sins, as if being “called” was an excuse to rest, lest the evil ruler gain power over us and thrust us out of the kingdom of the Lord.” (The Epistle of Barnabas 4:9-13)
The poster, scgraham is correct in claiming in post #11 : “There's eternal security for the believer, so long as he/she walks in obedience. If not, he/she will be blotted out of the Book of Life.” And, if I understand lee9786’s post #26, lee also is following the ancient pattern in the comment :
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“I know plenty of people that say they believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. If they believe this statement, but don't act according to how he stated in his ministry, does that mean they are saved?
It is said that demons believe that Christ was the Son of God, but what makes them different than Christians? Their hearts and actions.
From what I've grasped, Faith is living one's life as Jesus Christ said. Not just professing him with one's lips. We have to obey the word. That's my conclusion anyways. ”
I believe Lee9786 is correct and Lee's position represents authentic ancient Christian doctrine on this point.
3) The ancient Doctrine of repentance was kept in context in authentic early christianity.
Early Christians not only knew that authentic repentance was critical to salvation, but that authentic repentance could not be counterfeited (as though God could be fooled). New Testament Hermas reminded the saints :
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“To those,” he said, “…whose hearts he saw were about to become pure, and who were about to serve him with all their heart, he gave repentance; but to those whose deceit and wickedness he saw, who were about to repent hypocritically, he did not give repentance,...(Early New Testament Hermas 72:2)
The authentic Christians understood not only that repentance was not granted to those who believed in “the doctrine of moral shortcuts” (of which there were several), but rather, that one day, those who lived and taught heresy would ultimately have to pay the price, (in interest). For example : “If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything and says, “I am a Christian,” he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded.” (G. Of Phillip) And yet, the Holy Spirit is given, to some extent, based on our obedience.
Repentance was not a new principle but is an eternal principle having equal application to all of us
The text of the oldest surviving Chrisitian sermon reflects the early Christian teaching on this principle: Clement taught the saints:
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“5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn that from generation to generation the Master has given an opportunity for repentance to those who desire to turn to him.” (I Clement 7:5-7)
The concept of repentance was not some vague principle, but was central to the lives of early authentic Christians : Clement encourages the early Christians :
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Let us accept correction, which no one ought to resent, dear friends. The reproof which we give one to another is good and exceedingly useful, for it unites us with the will of God” (I Clement 56:2)
In authentic Christianity, faith and repentance applied not only to the attitudes in our spirits, but the actions we carried out as well : Early New Testament Hermas taught: “...the Lord, who is exceedingly compassionate, will give healing for your previous acts of ignorance, if from now on you defile neither your flesh nor the spirit. For they belong together, and one cannot be defiled without the other. Therefore keep both pure, and you will live to God.” (Hermas 60:3-4)
For the early saints, repentance was not a vague, ethereal principle, but just as the pagans recognized Christian, hypocrisy, both pagans AND christians agreed on what the Christians were to act like if they had repented from hypocrisy They were to : “Wash and be clean; remove the wickedness from your souls out of my sight. Put an end to your wickedness; learn to do good; seek out justice; deliver the one who is wronged; give judgment on behalf of the orphan, and grant justice to the widow.” I Clement 8:4
4) THERE WERE IMPORTANT BLESSINGS ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRINCIPLE OF REPENTANCE IN ANCIENT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
The early saints taught that the Lord said : “... I do not desire the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance.” (1st Clement 8:1-2) and IMPORTANTLY, they understood repentance as a means of obtaining more blessings than just forgiveness.
The correct ancient context into which authentic repentance was taught was NOT as an onerous principle, but rather as part of God’s love and desires for us to learn moral principles underlying joy and by which we mercy is obtained and becomes operative in our lives :
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“You see, dear friends, what great protection there is for those who are disciplined by the Master; because he is a kind father, he disciplines us in order that we may obtain mercy through his holy discipline.” (I Clement 56:16)
And what is it that God wants for his children? Gad tell us :
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“....according to God’s truth, repentance destroys disobedience, puts darkness to flight, illumines the vision, furnishes knowledge for the soul, and guides the deliberative powers to salvation. 8 For what it has not learned from human agency, it understands through repentance.“ (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Gad 5:1-8)
These are profoundly important blessing that we to receive through repentance.
It is just as the poster Zero7 said :
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Zero7 in post #12 : “When the foundation is flawed (teaching of ET and/or annihilation), then everything taught after it is flawed as well. That's why the once saved always saved argument is futile.
This is consistent with the same truth AlabamaStorm pointed out in post #12 regarding one consequence of faulty theory “...one sin leads to another. Doctrinal errors lead to more errors.. [/quote]
Clements great question to the early christians was “What repayment, then, shall we give to him, or what fruit worthy of what he has given to us? (2nd Clement 1:3) is answered consistently in early christianity by faith enough to repent :
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“7 While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance. 9 For he is the one who knows everything beforehand, and knows what is in our heart. ” (2nd Clement 9:7-8)
Anciently it was taught that as “the righteous stumbles ....he looks to where his salvation comes from.” And importantly, this involved moral change : “The confidence of the righteous (comes) from God their savior; sin after sin does not visit the house of the righteous. The righteous constantly searches his house, to remove his unintentional sins.” (Psalms of Solomon #3:5-7) [/quote]
The early Christian understood that they had no guarantee to blessings without obedience to this principle, thus they taught that the christian could “perish needlessly” without repentance :
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“Let us repent, therefore, with our whole heart, lest any of us should perish needlessly.” They applied this principle to THEMSELVES, thus they said “....so that we may all be saved, and let us admonish and turn back one another.” (2 Clement 17:1)
It is important to remember that Clement is speaking to faithful Christians and THEIR potential to “perish needlessly” if they do not repent. He’s not talking to Pagans here. Thus bideshi is, as a Christian, following this ancient admonition when he says in post #20 “I will endeavor to stay forgiven right up to the end, just in case the eternal security doctrine is wrong. I want to be in God's Kingdom.”. THAT, is an authentic ancient Christian doctrinal position.
5) Anciently, the Christians taught that God is NOT simply interest in man’s belief in him and dis-interested in all other moral principles such a man’s moral understanding and obedience, but rather, to the ancient Christians; God WANTS man to make moral progress and to learn to be obedient to correct moral principles, for man’s benefit.
This is reflected in the following Synagogal Prayer :
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“1 O Almighty God, eternal one, Master of the whole universe, Creator and President of everything, 2 the one who showed forth man as a (micro-)cosm of the cosmos through Christ, 3 and who gave an implanted and written law to him, so that he might live lawfully as a rational being, 4 and when he had sinned, gave him your goodness, as a pledge to lead him to repentance; 5 look upon those who have bent the neck of their soul and body to you, because 6 He does not desire the death of the sinner, but his repentance, so that he might turn back from his way of evil, and live!”(Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - A Prayer of entreaty for God’s Mercy upon the Penitent (AposCon 8.9.8f) #11:1-6)
The ancient Judao-Christian doctrine regarding forgiveness did not attempt to separate faith in Jesus from other principles of Salvation. I do not think any theory such as “the doctrine of moral short cuts” which involves faith in Jesus at the exclusion of all other moral principles has ANY advantage over authentic, early Christian doctrines.
Clearly
(twvivinn)
Last edited by Clear lens; 03-22-2011 at 04:32 PM..
Mike,
Understandable ... eternal security is the main topic.
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"The believer who loses his faith does not lose his eternal salvation. He loses his eternal rewards. But he remains eternally saved."
Mike,
I sure hope you think this through....loses faith + loses eternal rewards but still is eternally saved......???? This sure looks like extreme logical arguments to sustain OSAS.
A person is judged and then subject to either damnation or salvation.
That is the reward for having faith or lack of faith.
The believer who loses his faith that results in losing his "eternal reward" can only do so because that person is no longer a believer.
Twin, just as man can do nothing to earn salvation, neither can the believer do anything to maintain his salvation. Once he has placed his faith in Christ and has received the free gift of eternal life, the matter is out of his hands. Man cannot undo what God has done.
Everything required to make eternal salvation possible for man was accomplished by Christ at the cross. Once a person has come to Christ for salvation, he has it. There is nothing that the believer can possibly do keep himself saved, and there is nothing the believer can do to lose his salvation.
On what basis do you assume that the believer can undo his salvation?
1] By not doing enough works? NO!!! Works were not an issue in becoming saved, and they are not an issue in maintaining salvation. Eph 2:8,9.
2] By committing sin? NO!!! Jesus Christ was already judged for the sins of mankind. Therefore sin cannot be judged a second time.
Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified (positionally) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ...12] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God. This means that sin is not an issue in salvation. The only issue in salvation is whether a person will trust Christ for eternal life.
So neither works or sin are an issue in 'maintaining' salvation. What about losing faith after having been saved?
3] Can a believer who loses his faith lose his salvation? NO!!! What did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman at the well?
John 4:13 ''Jesus answered and said to her. ''Everyone who drinks of this water [literal water] shall thirst again;[the implication being that drinking water will temporarily satisfy thirst, but you will become thirsty again and must again drink water]; 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
What does 2 Tim 2:13 say?
2 Tiim 2:13 'If we [believers] are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Tim 2:11 refers to the believers identification with Christ. Verse 12a refers to one of the eternal rewards of believers who endure - reigning with Christ. Verse 12b refers to the denial of rewards to those believers who deny Christ. Verse 13 refers to Christs faithfulness to the faithless believer.
Jesus Christ cannot disown Himself. Therefore He cannot disown even unprofitable members of His own body [1 Cor 12:12]. Christ's faithfulness to Christians is not contingent upon their faithfulness to Him.
I hope you'll at least take a look at this study on eternal security.
Twin, this comment that you made, 'A person is judged and then subject to either damnation or salvation. That is the reward for having faith or lack of faith.', shows a lack of understanding concerning the eternal rewards that belong to the spiritually mature believer. They go far beyond simply being eternally saved. You might want to take a look at this study on eternal rewards. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
Please refer to the next post as well. Post #33.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-22-2011 at 05:52 PM..
Do Revelation 2:11 and 3:5 imply that the believer can lose his salvation? No, they do not.
Revelation 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.''
Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.'
'Shall not be hurt by the second death.'
'and I will not erase his name form the book of life.'
People will read these verses and they seem to imply that the believer can lose his salvation. They do not.
These phrases are what are known as Litotes (pronounced, lie'-tuh-tease').
Litotes is a literary device, a figure of speech in which an affirmative idea is expressed by the negation of its opposite. Litotes is a way of confirming the truth of something by denying its opposite.
For instance, in English, a person by state how good something is by saying 'that's not bad.' He is affirming that something is good by negating the opposite - 'that's not bad.'
Or you might refer to someone as being smart by saying 'He's no dummy.'
The Greek Language uses Litotes as well. The Bible has a number of Litotes.
Revelation 2:11 and 3:5 are two examples.
In Revelation 3:5 [regarding the believer who overcomes - who advances to spiritual maturity] 'and I will not erase his name from the book of life.' = and I will treat his name very specially in the Book of Life.
Revelation 3:5 is not implying that the believer can lose his salvation. It is a positive affirmation that the winner believer - the believer who overcomes, will have reward for overcoming.
Am I making this up? No, I am not. Here are a couple of links regarding Litotes in the Bible.
twin.spin comments to Mike555 in post #30 : “Mike,
I sure hope you think this through....loses faith + loses eternal rewards but still is eternally saved......???? This sure looks like extreme logical arguments to sustain OSAS.
A person is judged and then subject to either damnation or salvation.
That is the reward for having faith or lack of faith.
The believer who loses his faith that results in losing his "eternal reward" can only do so because that person is no longer a believer.
Twin.spin, I believe you are correct in your point regarding the “extreme” use of “logic” in order to support the theory that one can be saved without authentic faith in Jesus.
I do not believe the theory is correct where Jesus saves those who ultimately reject him; where he saves the rapists; saves the torturers; saves the murderers; and saves terrible despots into a wonderful heaven simply because they once, perhaps as a child, sincerely believed in Jesus. I believe such a doctrine was always considered heretical in early authentic Christianity.
This doctrine of “salvation without active faith” was not seen as heretical simply because it took such torturous logic and rhetoric to support it. But because it was simply untrue that we can be saved without faith in Jesus and obedience to him. This clear truth that ongoing faith and obedience to Jesus was expected from us is not merely obvious, but it was simple and logical, and this authentic doctrine needed no “outside rhetorical or illogic” to support it, nor did the authentic doctrine need unusual interpretations of scriptures to support it.
On the forums, we frequently see list after list of “pet scriptures” accompanied by clever re-interpretations and rhetorical support. The two sides then simply argue the finer points of how to interpret competing scriptures. Rarely do posters consider what the early Christians themselves, said they believed. The earliest texts are clear.
Consider Early New Testament Hermas’ as he teaches the early, simple, clear, Christian doctrine
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“But the fact that you have not fallen away from the living God, and your sincerity and great self-control, saves you. These things have saved you, if you remain steadfast, and they save all who practice such things and walk in innocence and sincerity.” (Hermas 7:2) underline is mine
Such statements do not NEED any clever re-interpretations, or torturous logic or Rhetorical support. The early, clear, authentic doctrines stood on their own. You may want to consider the possibility that such early Christians did NOT interpret the scriptures in the same way Mike555 wants to interprets them.
For example, It is clear in their own texts, that the earliest authentic Christians believed that they were required,not only TO BELIEVE in Jesus, but TO BE OBEDIENT TO Jesus and to follow him in truth in order to be saved. Those who were DISOBEDIENT to Jesus, had no promise that he would save them.
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“For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death? Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it, because we have lived in unseemly places? Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars but our faces shall be blacker than darkness? For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death.” He (the Lord) answered and said, “This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage, that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said.”(Fourth Book of Ezra 7:120, 123 and 125-131)
Again, the doctrine of importance of obedience to God NEEDS no clever logic or unusual interpretation or rhetorical support.
Early New Testament Clement also confirms the ongoing role of faithfulness as the early authentic Christian doctrine :
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“Take care, dear friends, lest his many benefits turn into a judgement upon all of us, as will happen if we fail to live worthily of him, and to do harmoniously those things which are good and well-pleasing in his sight.”(1st Clement 21:1)
When Clement taught the doctrine “that we may be saved while we render Obedience” (1st Clement 60:4) He was teaching clear, and authentic early Christian doctrine.
This doctrine was repeated over and over in such clarity that one scarcely can miss it in the earliest Texts.
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“Indeed, he himself says, “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will acknowledge him before my Father.” This then is our reward, if we acknowledge him through whom we were saved. But how do we acknowledge him? By doing what he says and not disobeying his commandments, and honoring him not only with our lips but “with our whole heart and with our whole mind. And in Isaiah he also says, “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.” Ch 4 “ 1 Let us therefore, not just call him Lord, for this will not save us. For he says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will be saved, but only the one who does what is right. 3 So then brothers, let us acknowledge him in our actions by loving one another, by not committing adultery or slandering one another or being jealous, but by being self-controlled, compassionate, and kind. And we ought to have sympathy for one another, and not be avaricious. By these actions let us acknowledge him, and not by their opposites....5 .For this reason, if you do these things, the Lord said, “If you are gathered with me in my bosom, yet you do not keep my commandments, I will throw you out and will say to you: ‘Get away from me; I do not know where you are from, you evildoers.” (2nd Clement 3:3-4; 4:1-5)
It is very clear that the earliest authentic doctrine was that we MUST not only HAVE FAITH in Jesus, but we MUST BE OBEDIENT TO JESUS COMMANDMENTS.
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“For if we do the will of Christ, we will find rest; but if we do not, if we disobey his commandments, then nothing will save us from eternal punishment.” (2nd Clement 6:7)
I do not need to add rhetorical comments or re-interpret scriptures or offer clever logic to such statements. Anyone can read the early Christian doctrine and make their own judgments as to what they mean.
a wicked man leaves his sinful ways his sin will be remembered no more
a righteous man leaves his righteous ways his righteousness will be remembered no more
Oh but God your ways are not equal the foolish people say, Oh my ways are equal says the Lord, you think I can not forgive, I can, you think I must not Love much given you would leave Me and live in sin and fall away given I paid for that, I wonder what a Christian falling away cost God on the cross, you think I am not Holy I AM He says, you think My Word is hard to understand you say, It couldn't be given if you are not as a little child you can not get to heaven, must take being a little child and saying I will do as you say Daddy, what to do you say Daddy, what do you want me to do, what must I believe, what is the truth, please help me, He says I have all the answers, follow Me I will teach you all my ways, I will protect you, abide in me and I will abide in you, draw close to me and I will draw close to you, I you love me We will make Our abode with you, Please He says, we live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God He says, Ok Daddy, I will learn the whole Bible and obey it, I love you so much, thank you for dying for my Daddy, thank you that you took what no one on this planet understands just for me, much less everyone, Oh My God Daddy they just don't get you
Twin.spin, I believe you are correct in your point regarding the “extreme” use of “logic” in order to support the theory that one can be saved without authentic faith in Jesus.
I do not believe the theory is correct where Jesus saves those who ultimately reject him; where he saves the rapists; saves the torturers; saves the murderers; and saves terrible despots into a wonderful heaven simply because they once, perhaps as a child, sincerely believed in Jesus. I believe such a doctrine was always considered heretical in early authentic Christianity.
This doctrine of “salvation without active faith” was not seen as heretical simply because it took such torturous logic and rhetoric to support it. But because it was simply untrue that we can be saved without faith in Jesus and obedience to him. This clear truth that ongoing faith and obedience to Jesus was expected from us is not merely obvious, but it was simple and logical, and this authentic doctrine needed no “outside rhetorical or illogic” to support it, nor did the authentic doctrine need unusual interpretations of scriptures to support it.
On the forums, we frequently see list after list of “pet scriptures” accompanied by clever re-interpretations and rhetorical support. The two sides then simply argue the finer points of how to interpret competing scriptures. Rarely do posters consider what the early Christians themselves, said they believed. The earliest texts are clear.
Consider Early New Testament Hermas’ as he teaches the early, simple, clear, Christian doctrine Such statements do not NEED any clever re-interpretations, or torturous logic or Rhetorical support. The early, clear, authentic doctrines stood on their own. You may want to consider the possibility that such early Christians did NOT interpret the scriptures in the same way Mike555 wants to interprets them.
For example, It is clear in their own texts, that the earliest authentic Christians believed that they were required,not only TO BELIEVE in Jesus, but TO BE OBEDIENT TO Jesus and to follow him in truth in order to be saved. Those who were DISOBEDIENT to Jesus, had no promise that he would save them.
Again, the doctrine of importance of obedience to God NEEDS no clever logic or unusual interpretation or rhetorical support.
Early New Testament Clement also confirms the ongoing role of faithfulness as the early authentic Christian doctrine : When Clement taught the doctrine “that we may be saved while we render Obedience” (1st Clement 60:4) He was teaching clear, and authentic early Christian doctrine.
This doctrine was repeated over and over in such clarity that one scarcely can miss it in the earliest Texts.It is very clear that the earliest authentic doctrine was that we MUST not only HAVE FAITH in Jesus, but we MUST BE OBEDIENT TO JESUS COMMANDMENTS.
I do not need to add rhetorical comments or re-interpret scriptures or offer clever logic to such statements. Anyone can read the early Christian doctrine and make their own judgments as to what they mean.
Clear
(Twsinell)
First of all, your statement which implies that I said that one can be saved without 'authentic' faith is bogus.
And you put too much stock in what the early church believed. There were heresies and varying beliefs in the early church just as there are today. You also seem to give the same weight to extra Biblical writings as to the Bible. It is what the Bible says that determines truth.
Lordship salvation is a heresy. A person is eternally saved at the moment he places his faith in Christ. Not after some period of obedience.
Eternal salvation is the result of trusting in Christ for that salvation. The moment a person places that trust in Christ he is saved forever regardless of whatever he does afterwards.
If a person has believed in Christ for salvation then God maintains his salvation and it is out of his hands.
Romans 8:38 ''For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.''
What is there that is not included in the words ‘death’, ‘life’ or ‘things to come’ that could cause you to lose your salvation? Nothing!!!
'Nor any other created thing' includes all created things which includes you yourself. The believer cannot walk away from his own salvation.
There is nothing in all of creation that can undo the believers eternal relationship with God.
Romans 8:38-39 is Pauls climactic statement in which he affirms the certainty of the believers' salvation.
Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He (Jesus Christ) has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'
The one who has believed in Christ is positionally sanctified the moment he places his faith in Christ (Acts 26:18).
There are threes stages of sanctification.
1) Positional Sanctification: 1 Cor 1:30; 6:11; Acts 26:18; Heb 10:10; 10:14. The believer is positionally in Christ and cannot lose that position. Positionally, the church-age believer is seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father in heaven.
2) Experiential Sanctification: 1 Thess 4:1-8; 1 Pet 1:14-16; John 17:17; Eph 5; 2 Tim 2:19-22; 2 Cor 7:1. After having been saved through faith in Christ, the believers experiential sanctification is dependent upon consistent decisions to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ through study of the word. Spiritual growth results from learning and applying Bible doctrine to the circumstances of life. Spiritual growth after eternal salvation is the process of experiential sanctification.
3) Ultimate Sanctification: Phil 3:21; 1 John 3:2; Rom 8:29; 1 Cor 15:35-54. Ultimate Sanctification refers to the resurrection of the body.
A failure to distinquish between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification is why people think that eternal salvation depends on obedience. Being a disciple of Christ depends on obedience - on picking up your cross and following Jesus. But eternal salvation depends only on one act of trust - faith - belief in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Excerpt:
The verb for “have been saved” is in the periphrastic perfect tense, which is composed of two Greek verbs, the perfect passive participle (tense, voice, and mood) form of sozo (saved) and the present active indicative form of eimi (have been). This periphrasis is carried over from the Attic (classic) Greek to the Koine (common) Greek used here. The periphrasis, one of the most powerful and forceful of all expressions in any language, indicates that the writer cannot get all the details into one verbal form. Therefore, he uses two verbal forms to provide a more forceful expression. Nothing is more forceful than the expression of the eternal security of the believer in this periphrastic perfect tense. The Greek language here is so strong and powerful that it leaves no loopholes or leaks of any kind. We are saved forever through simple faith. The first verb in the Greek is the perfect passive participle verb sesosmenoi (sesw|sme/noi), from the root verb sozo, meaning salvation. The intensive perfect form of sesosmenoi emphasizes the present state from a past action. In the present tense, the person is now saved. The past action is faith in Christ. This verb indicates the completion of an action at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ with an emphasis on the existing results. In other words, once saved, always saved. It emphasizes the finished product, meaning you are permanently saved and eternally secure. The intensive perfect is the strongest, most emphatic way of saying that something is true or real; there is nothing more real than eternal security. This is the emphatic method in the Greek of presenting the reality of eternal security after salvation. Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
Legalists get all worked up over the Biblical truth of the believers eternal security. But the believer who is oriented to the grace of God never has any doubts about his eternal security.
Where are all those different kinds of sanctification words in the Bible?
Positional, Experimental, Ultimate, where did we get all these other words from
I mean the Romans Ch8 part is really a good place for once saved always saved, you really would think if you didn't read the whole Bible hundreds of times and read blotted out of the book of life in Revelation when God spoke in anger to the church, you might think it was that way, if you didn't read enduring to the end to be saved over and over you might think Romans Ch 8 was all there was, If you didn't read that at the end of the whole Bible you have to keep God's commands to go to heaven Rev 22:14
Where are all those different kinds of sanctification words in the Bible?
Positional, Experimental, Ultimate, where did we get all these other words from
I mean the Romans Ch8 part is really a good place for once saved always saved, you really would think if you didn't read the whole Bible hundreds of times and read blotted out of the book of life in Revelation when God spoke in anger to the church, you might think it was that way, if you didn't read enduring to the end to be saved over and over you might think Romans Ch 8 was all there was, If you didn't read that at the end of the whole Bible you have to keep God's commands to go to heaven Rev 22:14
I believe you are correct Elijah to come, context, context, context..... and there are those key verses repeated in the holy scripture that reveals God's truth leading one in ALL truth then what is taught by man's interpretation and we know that the Holy Spirit teaches the believer and gives them the discernment to know truth and error..... amen !!
Where are all those different kinds of sanctification words in the Bible?
Positional, Experimental, Ultimate, where did we get all these other words from
That's Experiential, not experimental.
They are Theological terms. Technical vocabulary to describe principals and doctrines found in the Bible. Just as the words 'rapture' and 'trinity' are not found in the Bible but which describe doctrines which are found in the Bible.
I mean the Romans Ch8 part is really a good place for once saved always saved, you really would think if you didn't read the whole Bible hundreds of times and read blotted out of the book of life in Revelation when God spoke in anger to the church, you might think it was that way, if you didn't read enduring to the end to be saved over and over you might think Romans Ch 8 was all there was, If you didn't read that at the end of the whole Bible you have to keep God's commands to go to heaven Rev 22:14
You are referring to Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.'
This is speaking of eternal rewards for the believer at the judgment seat of Christ The phrase 'and I will not erase his name from the book of life' is a figure of speech called a 'Litotes'. Litotes is understatement in which a positive point is made by denying its opposite.
In the English language Litotes is common. For example, when something is good a person might say, 'that's not bad.' Or when someone is smart you might say, 'He's no dummy.'
Litotes is also used in the Greek and is found frequently in the Bible. For example...
Heb. 6:10 God is not unjust to forget your work ... = God's character guarantees he will remember your work ...
Heb. 2:11 he is not ashamed to call them brethren = he is glad to call them brethren
Eph. 1:16 I... do not cease giving thanks for you = I always give thanks for you
Rev. 3:5 I will not erase his name from the Book of Life = I will treat his name very specially in the Book of Life
Now as for 'enduring to the end to be saved', That is Matthew 24:13 ''But he who endures to the end, he shall be saved. This passage refers to tribulational believers. With the exception of those believers who are martyred during the tribulation, those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of the tribulation will be be physically saved to go into the Millennium.
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'Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in physical bodies.'
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.77]
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The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is eternally secure. He cannot lose, he cannot walk away from his eternal salvation.
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