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Oh really, if there is no such place as hell then why do think Jesus died a horrific death on the cross?
I know this might be hard to receive ILNC,it is for me too.........If we are not spiritually minded(and by that i do not mean full of bible head knowledge) we are actually experiencing death......for to be spiritually minded is life and peace to be carnally minded(most of us christians are most of the times) is sin and death.
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
Hell was talked about in the OT....but what can be expected that you would not see it in the OT when it is obvious the way God spoke about it in the NT.
"mankind was not in direct relation to God" ... in the OT
What do you call ......
Adam & Eve's eviction ... a UR experience
Cain's will to be banished over God's UR offer
Noah's insane weather forcasting
Tower of Babel
Abraham's adventures
The ten plagues
Pharaoh's army refusal to learn how to swim
Israel's failed military campains with subsequent multiple captivities
The falling walls of Jericho
King Darius' fasination with lions and their den
I really don't get it (actually I do ..just a phrase) do you people just get so wrapped up in the hysteria in proving just how wrong God is... that you mindless say things?
The book of Isiah ends with this warning: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
that scripture pretty much backs up what i've been saying all along.
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I quite frankly find your beliefs a bit confusing and a little hard to understand. It seems as though you take certain parts of the Bible that you seem to fit well with. But it is not in my intentions to dispute that. I was speaking to you by taking the entire Bible's context.
Truth of the matter is the bible does say this.... "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20. It doesn't say they would be tortured forever. It simply says they are tossed into the lake of fire. Where does that eternal torment concept come from? Where exactly is the part where God convinces the unbelievers?
tell me again what names are written in the book of life? The bible declares all men fall short, therefore ALL names a blotted out... But one... Christ. Right?
Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
Why the need for annihilation when it should serve a purpose? What purpose is there in "poof?"
Quote:
If we are talking about the bible after all and what the Bible says about hell then that's what I'd like to discuss. Not in some belief that you found fit for yourself... because I after all don't think like you do. So it's impossible for me to have your precise beliefs.
I believe in the same way as you do that we are all children of God... and all that good stuff. But I also believe in what the Bible says. And the bible does say that the only way we come to God is through believing in Jesus Christ and that's the ultimate message.
Why then did God create humans you ask? Well, that's what I'd like to know too... and that's what my purpose in this life is to find those answers. But that doesn't mean that the "annihilation" is to be disregarded completely. Maybe there's more to it then meets the eye and that is why we have these discussions after all.... to see what we can find.
Tell me though, how did you come about disregarding the angels, demons, hell etc but yet you found ways to believe in God, heaven, etc? Do you believe in eternity? Where do these ideas come from?
I don't believe in heaven either, God well... I think God can't be proven but I'm holding out hope that some God actually exists. How can a person believe or disbelieve eternity? I have no way of knowing other than I suppose It means outside of time. And where did I get these ideas? The bible and my own human reasoning.
There is a huge misunderstanding with people in the church these days. But in the best way that I can put it, in simply studying the scriptures, I believed. It's what happened with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and even Paul.
"“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:1
"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8
No questions asked.... just believe. And in believing in what the Bible says, the bible says, "you are righteous." "The just shall live by faith, and not by sight."
Tell that to the victims of David Koresh and others who had blind faith in what they were taught....
I was speaking within the context of the Scriptures.... I'm not claiming that believing whatever you come up with makes it truth. I am simply saying that what the Bible offers is that if you believe in Jesus Christ you are saved. Hence, the self-fulfilling prophecy if you do not believe.
Well, yes I completely disagree with this approach.
The Bible never says you have to be perfect... the bible says you already ARE perfect... you just gotta act upon it, or believe.
"Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."
But hell wasn't created by God to torture his creation. Hell/death is that illusion that was placed in our minds wayyy back in the garden of Eden. That's what I am trying to explain to you.
Christ came to say, "wake up, rise from the dead (hell) and i will shine on you."
And no it is not UR that takes out that fear... it is CHRIST who takes out that fear. He's the one who tells you not to worry and to freely love yourself, etc. etc. and etc.
Amen and Amen. And notice in that chapter you quoted from I Corinthians 13 where he says, " For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." Paul is talking about this world as that dark mirror that we're looking through. This life is that illusion I've been making references to and we see glimpses here and there of the reality but death/hell gets in the way of it all... and the only thing that will lead to that reality is faith, hope and love... most of all love.
And again absolutely, when we come to believe in Christ that is all that matters. Right now, without Christ, we are in that illusion... but in Christ, we are in the reality.
So if I believe in Christ then I'm good? So the belief then serves no purpose other than to appease an angry invisible god?
I think the bible was trying to show a way to make life better not an afterlife better. I think you are missing the point. But that's just my opinion. Like I said before.... Belief in something doesn't make it true any more than belief in God is what he required(s).
I quite frankly find your beliefs a bit confusing and a little hard to understand. It seems as though you take certain parts of the Bible that you seem to fit well with. But it is not in my intentions to dispute that. I was speaking to you by taking the entire Bible's context.
Truth of the matter is the bible does say this.... "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20. It doesn't say they would be tortured forever.
As you said.... if you take everything into account, it does. (they would be tortured forever)
OT examples are:
1 Chronicles 28:9
"the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
Job 20
“Surely you know how it has been from of old,
ever since man was placed on the earth,
that the mirth of the wicked is brief,
the joy of the godless lasts but a moment.
Though his pride reaches to the heavens
and his head touches the clouds, he will perish forever..
Psalm 69:23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.
Psalm 81:15
Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.
Psalm 92:7
that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.
Proverbs 21:28
A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyedforever.
_________________________
In the NT, it is expressed directly, or is being compared to eternal life or called being "condemned".
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternallife.”
John 3:16
“ that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned;
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
It's there for the reading.......
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