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If I can draw you a picture... I'd put a circle and call it the illusion (life) and outside of it is the reality (truth). Inside of this circle we are being deceived and we are following along the same paths that Adam and Eve followed when they ate from the Tree of knowledge.
Our minds are only in the circle because of unbelief.... our minds have to be enlightened.... like the Scripture I referenced, "wake up o sleeper, and rise from the dead and Christ will shine on you." Our minds ultimately have the power to step out of the circle or stay in it. But Christ came to show us that it is possible to step out of that circle.
What merit is there to believe? Everything. If your mind doesn't believe, it will stay in that circle... it will stay in that illusion. The mind essentially became a victim of its own creativity. The truth certainly cares that we believe in God.... the truth itself is God and he cares for us in the sense that he never intended for us to be there. That is why Christ came and walked on water, healed the blind, and rose from the dead to show us and teach us that all of this is not the reality themselves.
Why would you want to remain in this illusion? Why would you not want to find the truth.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thati the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Romans 8
None of this seems logical, nor does it make sense to me.... You have to be open minded in order to entertain truth.
I'm not following you at all. You gave the analogy of David Koresh because I said that I believed in the Bible. Now you're saying I'm following myself?
I'm not following you at all. You gave the analogy of David Koresh because I said that I believed in the Bible. Now you're saying I'm following myself?
Anything you interpret from the bible is filtered through what you desire to believe. Therefore we deceive ourselves all the time, just as Koresh deceived others.
Anything you interpret from the bible is filtered through what you desire to believe. Therefore we deceive ourselves all the time, just as Koresh deceived others.
My dear, you're accusing me of the same thing you are doing. I don't assume to know the truth more so than anyone.... but I do believe in the Scriptures and I try my best to read into it. Sure, I'm only human. But are you not doing the same thing yourself? Taking some scriptures but not using others for your benefit? Isn't that essentially you "interpreting from the bible to fit what you desire to believe"?
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There is value in checking sources for oneself.
I'll agree to that and I try to do the best that I can.
Listen, quite frankly our conversation has been pretty unproductive... I've tried to stay on topic and try to discuss biblical meanings and interpretations and all but I can't do it when you keep giving me these little comments like, "oh well, tell that to the one's who believed in David Koresh." etc. How many posts have I left asking you to reexplain yourself? Truth is, nothing we have been talking about is remotely cohesive or I feel even coherent. Now, I'm not trying to rant or complain with you. I'm just trying to be realistic here. We're not going anywhere with this. None of the things you've said follow constant stream of thinking, so to speak.... it's like you're just telling me what you're thinking when you read one small portion I write that you disagree with.
In the end, your argument doesn't really seem to jive with believing in Christ... either that or you're just not doing a good job of explaining your point of view. I'm sorry I have to break it down like this, but that's just how I feel right now. because I'm wasting a loooooot of time on these forums and its getting pretty distracting and i'm sleepy.
Listen, quite frankly our conversation has been pretty unproductive...
I don't think it's been unproductive, what I see is maybe one side not really trying to understand the other. I see debating Migol, that's what it's all about.
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In the end, your argument doesn't really seem to jive with believing in Christ... either that or you're just not doing a good job of explaining your point of view. I'm sorry I have to break it down like this, but that's just how I feel right now. because I'm wasting a loooooot of time on these forums and its getting pretty distracting and i'm sleepy.
Kat's "argument" is from a totally different view on the Bible and what the definition of "hell" is.....you're just not wanting to hear another viewpoint. You said it yourself, you're distracted and sleeepy and not really trying to understand.
Kat's "argument" is from a totally different view on the Bible and what the definition of "hell" is.....you're just not wanting to hear another viewpoint. You said it yourself, you're distracted and sleeepy and not really trying to understand.
Why do you say I'm not wanting to hear another viewpoint? Am I not constantly on here, diligently reading and responding? All I was saying is that this discussion is going back and forth. I see myself repeating myself over and I'm also getting this vibe that the viewpoint I'm trying to bring is not being heard. Hence, "anything I interpret from the bible is filtered through what I desire to believe. Therefore I deceive myself all the time, just as Koresh deceived others."
I'm coming from the perspective that maybe if we were to study the Bible and see what it actually has to say, then perhaps we'd all be in "one mind and one accord" having all of us putting on the mind of Christ. And if the Spirit of the Word that created the universe has inspired that book then perhaps it will inspire all of us to understand crucial things. Instead, I'm getting idealistic rebuttals and not the message of the Bible. Maybe, it is the Word of God, maybe it isn't. But why not we look into it together? I'm not getting that at all. I get, "oh the Bible can't be trusted because your mind will deceive you." Makes no sense at all.
Why do you say I'm not wanting to hear another viewpoint? Am I not constantly on here, diligently reading and responding? All I was saying is that this discussion is going back and forth. I see myself repeating myself over and I'm also getting this vibe that the viewpoint I'm trying to bring is not being heard. Hence, "anything I interpret from the bible is filtered through what I desire to believe. Therefore I deceive myself all the time, just as Koresh deceived others."
Because of what you said, you seem to be blaming Kat for not agreeing with you. I think both of your arguments are clear, but we have to agree to disagree sometimes. You're frustrated because you can't get Kat to think like you do. You can't always win when debating religion!
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I'm coming from the perspective that maybe if we were to study the Bible and see what it actually has to say, then perhaps we'd all be in "one mind and one accord" having all of us putting on the mind of Christ. And if the Spirit of the Word that created the universe has inspired that book then perhaps it will inspire all of us to understand crucial things. Instead, I'm getting idealistic rebuttals and not the message of the Bible. Maybe, it is the Word of God, maybe it isn't. But why not we look into it together? I'm not getting that at all. I get, "oh the Bible can't be trusted because your mind will deceive you." Makes no sense at all.
You're coming from a fundamentalist ETer perspective and Kat is not. I think it's fine to debate that but it's not okay to tell someone else they are not making sense when they are, to me at least. I'm a Universalist so of course I understand where Kat is coming from and it's really kind of unfair when debating to try and paint the other person as incoherent simply because you're not willing to listen to what it is they are telling you. We ARE looking into the word of God together, but you have to have an open mind and heart to another's perspective and as a former ETer I know how hard that can be. But don't discount what someone is saying simply because you don't agree with it, listen and hear.
Why do you say I'm not wanting to hear another viewpoint? Am I not constantly on here, diligently reading and responding? All I was saying is that this discussion is going back and forth. I see myself repeating myself over and I'm also getting this vibe that the viewpoint I'm trying to bring is not being heard. Hence, "anything I interpret from the bible is filtered through what I desire to believe. Therefore I deceive myself all the time, just as Koresh deceived others."
I'm coming from the perspective that maybe if we were to study the Bible and see what it actually has to say, then perhaps we'd all be in "one mind and one accord" having all of us putting on the mind of Christ. And if the Spirit of the Word that created the universe has inspired that book then perhaps it will inspire all of us to understand crucial things. Instead, I'm getting idealistic rebuttals and not the message of the Bible. Maybe, it is the Word of God, maybe it isn't. But why not we look into it together? I'm not getting that at all. I get, "oh the Bible can't be trusted because your mind will deceive you." Makes no sense at all.
Migol84,
The vibe your getting is because there are many here have "opened their eyes or ears" to other voices that isn't from God. As John said:
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
There are people here who deny Jesus as God..yet John writes otherwise. John 1:1
There are people here who are reject the Bible as the source God provided to find eternal life ... yet John writes otherwise. 1 John 5:13
There are people who believe God will not hold sin accountable, that all will be UR'ed ... yet John writes otherwise. John 3:36
This is why the same people say the same things...and I don't get bothered when accused of being narrow minded.
I agree with John 1:1, 3:36, 1 John 5:13. God's people can reconize who aren't from God and have the spirit of falsehood by what they object to.
Object to Jesus judging people and sending them to their eternal damnation ... then they don't "listen to us" (Matthew 25),
Object that God's wrath remains on unbelievers ..... then they don't "listen to us" (John 3:36)
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-13-2011 at 10:31 AM..
Migol84,
The vibe your getting is because there are many here have "opened their eyes or ears" to other voices that isn't from God. As John said:
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
There are people here who deny Jesus as God..yet John writes otherwise. John 1:1
There are people here who are reject the Bible as the source God provided to find eternal life ... yet John writes otherwise. 1 John 5:13
There are people who believe God will not hold sin accountable, that all will be UR'ed ... yet John writes otherwise. John 3:36
This is why the same people say the same things...and I don't get bothered when accused of being narrow minded.
I agree with John 1:1, 3:36, 1 John 5:13. God's people can reconize who aren't from God and have the spirit of falsehood by what they object to.
Object to Jesus judging people and sending them to their eternal damnation ... then they don't "listen to us" (Matthew 25),
Object that God's wrath remains on unbelievers ..... then they don't "listen to us" (John 3:36)
Amen twin.
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