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What i find most troubling about the whole hell/eternal torment issue from the fundamental christianity point of view(and that is all it is a point of view), is the fact that's it's offended by the thought that there is no such place.
Oh really, if there is no such place as hell then why do think Jesus died a horrific death on the cross?
Tell me again how the Bible claims there is no hell? I'm not offended by the thought of it... but I do find this concept a bit strange. What then shall we do with hell mentioned in Revelation and the Lake of fire?
There are two types of physical death . . . animals (just called death) and hell (human death that is more animal than spiritual but still aware). Both death and hell end up in the "pool of fire" (galaxy?) . . . but for the aware humans it is "hell." As the refining fire of the love of God washes over them and the complete truth of their lives is revealed to them in excrusciating detail . . . their obliviousness is stripped away from their consciousness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over their ignorance and the pain their selfishness caused. This anguish and regret will ONLY be in proportion to what they have sown.There is no such thing as ET or Annihilation.
There are two types of physical death . . . animals (just called death) and hell (human death that is more animal than spiritual but still aware). Both death and hell end up in the "pool of fire" (galaxy?) . . . but for the aware humans it is "hell." As the refining fire of the love of God washes over them and the complete truth of their lives is revealed to them in excrusciating detail . . . their obliviousness is stripped away from their consciousness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over their ignorance and the pain their selfishness caused. This anguish and regret will ONLY be in proportion to what they have sown.There is no such thing as ET or Annihilation.
What is UR? I've seen it mentioned before.
It's interesting you say this... because this is actually where I was getting at. I'm not sure it's a valid thing to contend that there is no hell. Hell is still there, but I agree its not the same thing as we've always viewed it. It's just sort of misleading to say there is no hell when the bible does make mention of it. I had sort of mentioned the same thing somewhere earlier... nobody seemed to comment on it though.
I however don't view hell as a physical place. Hell is a place where the soul will go. What is the soul? Mind, will, emotions? Soul isn't something physical, and if that's so.... how can a soul go to a physical place? I know then that hell is a spiritual place. A place in which our minds will suffer judgement.
I'd further go on to say that I don't view the lake of fire as part of some existent place somewhere in the Universe. Like I've said , I think it's a spiritual place. I view the universe like the size of one small tiny cell in the ever intricacies of God.
It's interesting you say this... because this is actually where I was getting at. I'm not sure it's a valid thing to contend that there is no hell. Hell is still there, but I agree its not the same thing as we've always viewed it. It's just sort of misleading to say there is no hell when the bible does make mention of it. I had sort of mentioned the same thing somewhere earlier... nobody seemed to comment on it though.
I however don't view hell as a physical place. Hell is a place where the soul will go. What is the soul? Mind, will, emotions? Soul isn't something physical, and if that's so.... how can a soul go to a physical place? I know then that hell is a spiritual place. A place in which our minds will suffer judgement.
UR is the notion that all people will be saved not matter what belief they hold as the truth while alive. Those who profess it as the truth will almost without exception ignore any verses that speak to the wrath of God and hinge every argument that "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 is meant to understand "all inclusive".
It ultimatly challanges Jesus having the authority to damn people forever because of their faithlessness or rejection.
It ultimatly denies the requirement for belief in Jesus during this lifetime.
It's interesting you say this... because this is actually where I was getting at. I'm not sure it's a valid thing to contend that there is no hell. Hell is still there, but I agree its not the same thing as we've always viewed it. It's just sort of misleading to say there is no hell when the bible does make mention of it. I had sort of mentioned the same thing somewhere earlier... nobody seemed to comment on it though.
I however don't view hell as a physical place. Hell is a place where the soul will go. What is the soul? Mind, will, emotions? Soul isn't something physical, and if that's so.... how can a soul go to a physical place? I know then that hell is a spiritual place. A place in which our minds will suffer judgement.
I'd further go on to say that I don't view the lake of fire as part of some existent place somewhere in the Universe. Like I've said , I think it's a spiritual place. I view the universe like the size of one small tiny cell in the ever intricacies of God.
I understand this dichotomy of physical and spiritual as lay concepts. But the reality of our universe is that there is no dichotomy. God is all and all is God. 95+% of our reality is what you would call non-physical (spiritual) . . . God's consciousness . . what scientists would call the universal field within which our reality exists. I see that we do not disagree . . . we just have different levels of understanding of our reality.
UR is the notion that all people will be saved not matter what belief they hold as the truth while alive. Those who profess it as the truth will almost without exception ignore any verses that speak to the wrath of God and hinge every argument that "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 is meant to understand "all inclusive".
It ultimatly challanges Jesus having the authority to damn people forever because of their faithlessness or rejection.
It ultimatly denies the requirement for belief in Jesus during this lifetime.
yeah, that's what I don't believe about universalism. Truth is that salvation is there for everybody, but people have to believe in order to be a part of that salvation. Just like in the days of Moses, the people of Israel wandered around the desert for 40 years because of unbelief. That is not to say however that it is God who denies them their salvation... but it is their unbelief itself that denies them of their salvation. It seems like I'm splitting hairs, but I am not. People have been viewing the topic of salvation wrong. So yes I agree that it is very important to believe that Jesus is the Son of God so that one would be saved.
I do not believe in the traditional stories of "hell" and the lake of fire... and how we will be burning forever for all eternity. If we were to take that literally then we must take the 7 headed beast with the harlot who will deceive the nations as literal. I do believe that hell is a spiritual place however.... I don't deny that the Bible makes mention of it. Will their souls be lifted out of hell before it gets casted into the lake of fire? I don't know. But it sure doesn't look like it is going to happen. Because the book of Revelation also makes mention that they will be cursing God even in their own suffering. The Bible never makes mention that they will repent... unless I've missed that part completely.
Ultimately, if God will eventually change their minds while they're in hell and they repent... why doesn't God just take care of that now?
Universal Reconciliation (Christian Universalism).I understand this dichotomy of physical and spiritual as lay concepts. But the reality of our universe is that there is no dichotomy. God is all and all is God. 95+% of our reality is what you would call non-physical (spiritual) . . . God's consciousness . . what scientists would call the universal field within which our reality exists. I see that we do not disagree . . . we just have different levels of understanding of our reality.
judging by the size of God.... I'd say our reality is at 110%.... and the rest that we view as our world is an illusion.... it's really nonexistent. I've said this plenty of times here and have always viewed it as such.
There is also a scripture in Psalms that says... "deep calls unto the deep" and another in Ecclesiastes that says, "God has made everything beautiful in its time, and has placed eternity in the hearts of men." Who we really are is actually 100% spiritual and this physical state that I am in is as buddhist would call it an "allusion". I know I would be stoned for saying this... but again reading from the Scriptures - and let me tell you, this is why I believe that we have religion. Carl Jeung even spoke about it in all of his books and how our brains are sort of mapped out to create religions. God made us like this to question our reality. That is why Paul says, " because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them."
What I believe, however, is that that very reality can only be enlightened by none other then Christ.
yeah, that's what I don't believe about universalism. Truth is that salvation is there for everybody, but people have to believe in order to be a part of that salvation. Just like in the days of Moses, the people of Israel wandered around the desert for 40 years because of unbelief. That is not to say however that it is God who denies them their salvation... but it is their unbelief itself that denies them of their salvation. It seems like I'm splitting hairs, but I am not. People have been viewing the topic of salvation wrong. So yes I agree that it is very important to believe that Jesus is the Son of God so that one would be saved.
I do not believe in the traditional stories of "hell" and the lake of fire... and how we will be burning forever for all eternity. If we were to take that literally then we must take the 7 headed beast with the harlot who will deceive the nations as literal. I do believe that hell is a spiritual place however.... I don't deny that the Bible makes mention of it. Will their souls be lifted out of hell before it gets casted into the lake of fire? I don't know. But it sure doesn't look like it is going to happen. Because the book of Revelation also makes mention that they will be cursing God even in their own suffering. The Bible never makes mention that they will repent... unless I've missed that part completely.
Ultimately, if God will eventually change their minds while they're in hell and they repent... why doesn't God just take care of that now?
I always wondered why people say belief makes one saved. It's like if I believe the bridge I am crossing is sound and safe but missed the "bridge out" sign... Would my belief really save me? Would it my belief change the truth? There is no merit in belief. IMO
I always wondered why people say belief makes one saved. It's like if I believe the bridge I am crossing is sound and safe but missed the "bridge out" sign... Would my belief really save me? Would it my belief change the truth? There is no merit in belief. IMO
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. This doesn't work like it does in natural occurrences. The same laws don't apply. The moment you doubt your own belief, you doubt your salvation. You've already doubted it since before you wrote this post. I'm not saying you're not saved... I'm saying that belief will make you question and seek for answers and that simple act of faith will lead you there. As Jesus said, "if you had a single grain of faith, you would move a mountain." Why would you doubt it? There's nothing to lose anyway.
And to further illustrate on your bridge analogy... the only difference is that Jesus actually did cross that bridge and he came out just fine.... so now all we have to do is believe that if it worked out for him... it can work out for all of us.
edit again.... and come to think of it, we are already there on the other side of that bridge.... it's just time for you to snap out of this illusion.
“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:14
Last edited by migol84; 06-11-2011 at 11:48 PM..
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I've said this plenty of times here and have always viewed it as such. 
and come to think of it, we are already there on the other side of that bridge.... it's just time for you to snap out of this illusion.