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The book of Isiah ends with this warning: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Not talking about a heaven and hell -- this is prophecy about the judgment that came to the Jews in 70AD
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah shall be many.
Isa 66:17 Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine's flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse, these are cut off together, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape from them to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, drawers of the bow; to Tubal and Javan, to the far away coasts that have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers out of all nations, an offering to Jehovah, on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says Jehovah; as the sons of Israel bring the offering in a clean vessel to the house of Jehovah.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take some of them for the priests, for the Levites, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make stand before Me, declares Jehovah, so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 And it will be, from new moon to its new moon, and from sabbath to its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
Mat 8:11 But I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven,
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
So if I believe in Christ then I'm good? So the belief then serves no purpose other than to appease an angry invisible god?
Not at all. You are missing the point. In the reality of God, we are not sinners. In the reality of God he doesn't know us individually. I am not joe, or suzie... as Paul said, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." The reality is Christ in us, the hope of glory. All one needs to do is believe that Jesus was the first man who actually accomplished living the perfect life. In other words, the reality is that we've been with God all along. It is our unbelief that creates hell and sin and death. That is the illusion. And if we never become enlightened, we will never leave from this illusion.... that is hell.
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I think the bible was trying to show a way to make life better not an afterlife better. I think you are missing the point. But that's just my opinion. Like I said before.... Belief in something doesn't make it true any more than belief in God is what he required(s).
No you are missing the point. But I agree somewhat that the Bible is trying to show a way to make life better..... in fact, I think what the Bible is showing us is that life is already perfect and unblemished if we start thinking like Christ did. That is the reality.
So do we need to believe in God? Are you saying that we don't even need to believe in God? That is no way supported by the Scriptures.
Tell that to the victims of David Koresh and others who had blind faith in what they were taught....
Who did they follow? David Koresh? Or Christ?
remember that verse.... "taste and see that the Lord is good." The bible doesn't try to brain wash you in any way.... it simply tells you something and puts no pressure for you to believe in it or not. but what it does tell you that if you're gonna believe in it.... it's by hearing it.... and simply by hearing it, it will convict you.
"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
" Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says..."
Not talking about a heaven and hell -- this is prophecy about the judgment that came to the Jews in 70AD
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah shall be many.
Isa 66:17 Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine's flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse, these are cut off together, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape from them to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, drawers of the bow; to Tubal and Javan, to the far away coasts that have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the nations. Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers out of all nations, an offering to Jehovah, on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says Jehovah; as the sons of Israel bring the offering in a clean vessel to the house of Jehovah.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take some of them for the priests, for the Levites, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make stand before Me, declares Jehovah, so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 And it will be, from new moon to its new moon, and from sabbath to its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Jehovah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
Mat 8:11 But I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven,
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
No, it is not talking about Jews 70 AD. It is talking about judgment and new heavens and new earth. Was there new heavens and new earth 70AD ?
New heavens and new earth is not literal. It's an expression meaning a new state of things or that "all is made new." It is figurative speech!
I agree that this is all figurative... but what is it trying to figure or what does it symbolize? That's essentially the question. Because whatever it is symbolizing, the Bible doesn't negate that. I've tried plenty of ways approaching this subject... I don't think anybody seems to know what I mean.
Not at all. You are missing the point. In the reality of God, we are not sinners. In the reality of God he doesn't know us individually. I am not joe, or suzie... as Paul said, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." The reality is Christ in us, the hope of glory. All one needs to do is believe that Jesus was the first man who actually accomplished living the perfect life. In other words, the reality is that we've been with God all along. It is our unbelief that creates hell and sin and death. That is the illusion. And if we never become enlightened, we will never leave from this illusion.... that is hell.
No you are missing the point. But I agree somewhat that the Bible is trying to show a way to make life better..... in fact, I think what the Bible is showing us is that life is already perfect and unblemished if we start thinking like Christ did. That is the reality.
So do we need to believe in God? Are you saying that we don't even need to believe in God? That is no way supported by the Scriptures.
What merit is in the belief? If it is an illusion, we merely need to recognize the illusion for what it is.. Does the truth care whether we believe in God or not?
New heavens and new earth is not literal. It's an expression meaning a new state of things or that "all is made new." It is figurative speech!
Figurative speech.... Symbolic....That is always easy to throw in. Poetic or not, the meaning is clear: the last verses of Isiah talk about eternal torment for the unrighteous, and the positive future of the believers.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-12-2011 at 06:43 PM..
but wouldn't anybody say, "well, if there is a possibility to accept Christ in another life, then why not just keep doing my thing?" i think I seem to understand where "universalism" is coming from and i don't disagree with the views entirely.... there's just somethings that make me raise my eyebrow a little.
No matter when you realize it . . . you will "reap what you have sown" . . . just NOT MORE or less than you have sown. The problem is that the rather ubiquitous requirement to "love God and each other" increases the scope of the things you can do that are unloving (not just ten) and will reap negative consequences. WE build on the foundation Jesus laid by our agape love, period. That is how we accept Christ.
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