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Yes that does indeed seem to be a problem with the orthodox view. I think what is missing from that view is that people always will reap what they sow.
Do they? Plenty of brutal dictators died in the lap of luxury.
Plenty of warm-hearted, gentle, meek souls who want nothing but goodness for even their enemies suffered horrible fates at the end.
Life is not fair. That should be the first commandment in my new "religion." Thou shalt get used to it!
I'll go a step further and ask how many human beings out there have murdered others in their own heart and mind...? They are standing at the start of that same path as those who have actually committed the act. The snowball has to start SOMEWHERE.
We are all connected.
What hurts one, hurts us all.
I wonder what hurt Jeffrey?
The thought is the inclination while the action is the sin itself. As long as we hold those thoughts that are not loving, we are still not able to enter the Kingdom of God. We must rid ourselves of all sin and inclinations to sin.
I think what hurt Dahmer is that he was never shown love as a mother and child know love. He may have been shown a form of love but not the one that connects. The same would apply to people like Charles Manson and Adolph Hitler. I do believe that Hitler has made it to the celestial heavens but he did have quite a lot of help and prayers that helped him out of his darkness. I was told it took him 20 years but I really don't know for sure.
If Jeff Dahmer was born again believer of Lord Jesus , he would be in Heaven today with the Lord ........ If he did not know Jesus, the works of the flesh was purely demonic, were Jesus would Judge him with the lost in the world
Wow! This is the best reason I've ever heard of to believe in Jesus. Apparently belief gives you a free license to do literally anything. You can even murder people, cut them up, stick them in your freezer and then cook them up for dinner whenever you get the urge for human flesh. And it's all forgiven.
Maybe what you see as "the end" is just the beginning...
And perhaps Magic Fairy dust cures cancer.
Nothing I've experienced, studied, seen, read or heard leads me anywhere close to the logical conclusion that something awaits us after the dirtnap. And this is nothing to fear, in my view: You remember how peaceful you were before you were born, yes?
Do they? Plenty of brutal dictators died in the lap of luxury.
Plenty of warm-hearted, gentle, meek souls who want nothing but goodness for even their enemies suffered horrible fates at the end.
Life is not fair. That should be the first commandment in my new "religion." Thou shalt get used to it!
I have to admit, I struggle with this whole "reap/sow" concept, given exactly what you've said above. I mean, depending on how literally one looks at that, one could start thinking that somehow Dahmer's victims were just reaping what they sowed!
But, I don't think the principle of reaping/sowing is a tit for tat kind of principle.
Biblically speaking (looking at Galatians 5 & 6) it seems to me that the reaping & sowing principle is an inner thing, and not an outer thing. Bad things don't necessarily happen to people who do bad things. Rather, inwardly, they've fed their baser instincts and desires and so those instincts and desires become more and more difficult for them to overcome. They will become increasingly prone to more and more evil thoughts and actions. Their world becomes darker and more sinister. I mean, can you imagine what it would be like to live in Dahmer's head ... it truly frightens me to think of what it would be like to deal with the "demons" he must have of fear, hate, paranoia, sick compulsions ... just utter darkness and despair, I would think.
Conversely, as one listens to and obeys the Spirit of Love within, those things become the stronger influence on them ... and according to Galatians, then, what those people increasingly reap inwardly is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. What a beautiful thing to have those things inwardly ... to not be able to have them taken from you.
IF there is an afterlife (and that's still a big IF for me), then I have to believe that, eventually, the power of God/Love will teach all of us to sow Love and reap those things. I have to believe that a God who is Love would not abandon a Dahmer (or a Pleroo) to the darker, baser instincts that would leave us in despair. How could Love do that?
My point was, according to orthodoxy, Jeff Dahmer may have been saved and be with Jesus right now because he said a prayer and repented right before his death.
Maybe according to "orthodoxy" but we don't know for certain what his fate is. We can believe and opinionate but until we are in spirit form ourselves, we don't know for sure. In my opinion, saying you are saved is different than actually being saved.
I have to admit, I struggle with this whole "reap/sow" concept, given exactly what you've said above. I mean, depending on how literally one looks at that, one could start thinking that somehow Dahmer's victims were just reaping what they sowed!
But, I don't think the principle of reaping/sowing is a tit for tat kind of principle.
Biblically speaking (looking at Galatians 5 & 6) it seems to me that the reaping & sowing principle is an inner thing, and not an outer thing. Bad things don't necessarily happen to people who do bad things. Rather, inwardly, they've fed their baser instincts and desires and so those instincts and desires become more and more difficult for them to overcome. They will become increasingly prone to more and more evil thoughts and actions. Their world becomes darker and more sinister.
No. Only in the eyes of those who see "bad things" in a qualitative, "moral" social view are those things "bad." The person doing terrible things could quite easily be a sociopath, totally unaffected by the misery they bring. This is pathological science. So it doesn't square with any dogma to say that doing bad things makes everyone miserable inside.
Society places this stigma on bad things, and most people feel bad when they do terrible things. But that's an outside influence, not a "spirit of love" thing that's in all of us.
Many people spend their whole lives doing horrible things to people, and through intense, believable rationalizations, live and die happily. This is not justice.
(Reprinted from the Christian Woman May/April 1995)
by Roy Ratcliff
Convicted serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was beaten and killed Nov. 28, 1994, by a fellow inmate at the Colombia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wis. The attack occurred while Dahmer and another inmate were cleansing a bathroom in the prison gymnasium.
The minister who baptized Dahmer shares his story and tells about a courageous woman who thought Dahmer was worth saving.
I first heard about Jeffrey Dahmer's desire for baptism through Roy McRay, a preacher in Milwaukee. He had received a phone call from Curtis Booth of Crescent, Okla., who had sent a Bible correspondence course to Jeffrey. Just a couple of weeks later, Mary Mott of Arlington, Va., had done the same; and at the end of the course, Jeffrey had requested baptism. After making the necessary arrangements with the prison chaplain to meet Jeffrey and to confirm his understanding, I learned about Mary. She had sent Jeffrey a World Bible School correspondence course after seeing a TV report about the book written by Lionel Dahmer, Jeffrey's father. Mary felt a deep conviction that this young man needed to hear the Gospel. She sent him a letter that said essentially, "I don't know if you want to do this, but I believe it would help you if you studied the Bible."
Mary is to be commended for the faithful spirit of power and love that drove her to reach out, even against the advice of other people, and try to save the soul of someone so commonly despised.
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