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I think it's different for each person. I don't have an answer for when we go from sinful nature to actually sinning. But here's a question for you to ponder. Was Adam born with a sinful nature? I'm thinking he had to be. Yet he was created in God's image. Hmmmm......
O'D I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.
As for being trapped....Didn't know I was.
I'm still learning about this total depravity and inability to choose God thing. Right now, I'm still studying but can't come up with proof to support it. So here's what I'm attempting to do.
1. List all scriptures related to innocence of babies pro and con
2. List all scriptures related to free will pro and con.
3. List all scriptures related to predestination pro and con
4. Make a two column list of pro/con
5. Pray for wisdom and knowledge do rightly divide
6. Share what I learn.
Katie
Wow... your believing Adam was created with a sinful nature, just like God in nature. Katie, I will forget you even implied that. The choice had to be presented to them, but their nature was pure, until they "believed a lie"!
I'm totaly out of this discussion. See yaaaaaaaaaaa
Katie, you are a perfect example of the little children Yahushua was talking about to whom the Kingdom was prepared for...lol.
One thing I never doubt on the forum. Everyone is sincere and passionate about what they believe. There is a scripture that always comes to my mind when I don't agree with someone's doctrine. Can't recall where it is but the apostles were complaining saying certain people were doing miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said leave them alone. If they're not against me, they're for me. I like that! Wish I could remember where it is. Luke maybe?
Wow... your believing Adam was created with a sinful nature, just like God in nature. Katie, I will forget you even implied that. The choice had to be presented to them, but their nature was pure, until they "believed a lie"!
I'm totaly out of this discussion. See yaaaaaaaaaaa
Nope not implying. Just thinking aloud. Adam was tempted. He had free will to choose. He chose to disobey a direct command of God. Now O'D, we too are created in God's image and you believe we are born with a sinful nature. Explain.
I believe the scriptures proclaim universalism. Those IN Christ shall be made alive. Here is what the text says:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The word made alive is in the Greek future tense. A very important concept here. Not all are alive in Christ now. However, the text says ALL shall be made alive, future tense.
And, everything, repeat: everything, has been created IN Christ:
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
All things were created IN Christ, and, IN Christ all things will be made alive (future tense).
That is why I believe all infants, children, and everyone else for that matter, will ultimately, in the end, when all is said and done, be alive in Christ, to the glory of God.
Why is this so difficult to believe? The text clearly states it to be so.
Yes all things were created in zChrist but that is not what puts one in Christ or clothes one in Christ. Shall be made alive is a reference to any who obey the gospel. So yes it is speaking future. All who obey shall be made alive in Christ.
One thing I never doubt on the forum. Everyone is sincere and passionate about what they believe. There is a scripture that always comes to my mind when I don't agree with someone's doctrine. Can't recall where it is but the apostles were complaining saying certain people were doing miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said leave them alone. If they're not against me, they're for me. I like that! Wish I could remember where it is. Luke maybe?
Katie
Luke 9:49-50 "And John... said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
Yes all things were created in zChrist but that is not what puts one in Christ or clothes one in Christ. Shall be made alive is a reference to any who obey the gospel. So yes it is speaking future. All who obey shall be made alive in Christ.
Kate
The text clearly states that creation did place us INChrist. Further it states that all things consist IN Christ. That is, they hold together, in order, not chaos. IOW, there is a purpose for our being created IN Christ.
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
And, that all things IN Christ should dwell in fullness, here:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
At some point in the future (if not already), all will find their dwelling IN Christ, IN fullness. It is an inescapable truth.
Furthermore, it is the will of God for it to be so, as further stated in Paul's first letter to the church in Corinth:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Ultimately, God will be all in all, as the text clearly says. There is no escaping this truth. And it is a most glorious truth indeed!
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-08-2011 at 06:26 PM..
The text clearly states that creation did place us INChrist. Further it states that all things consist IN Christ. That is, they hold together, in order, not chaos. IOW, there is a purpose for our being created IN Christ.
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
And, that all things IN Christ should dwell in fullness, here:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
At some point in the future (if not already), all will find their dwelling IN Christ, IN fullness. It is an inescapable truth.
Furthermore, it is the will of God for it to be so, as further stated in Paul's first letter to the church in Corinth:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Ultimately, God will be all in all, as the text clearly says. There is no escaping this truth. And it is a most glorious truth indeed!
You skipped Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Jesus is the head of the Body. The Body, His Body, is the church. All believers make up the church.
You skipped Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Jesus is the head of the Body. The Body, His Body, is the church. All believers make up the church.
Yes, those too, and that should be obvious, as it is speaking of those alive now in Christ, such as the church, the body, etc., and as Christ being it's head, it's beginning and having preeminence as such in the present tense. Look at the Greek word εστιν, translated as "is", present tense. See the Greek word πρωτευων, translated as preeminence (or supremacy), also used in the present tense.
The point I was making is that the ALL THINGS, that are IN Christ, are all to be included, but in their own times, as stated here:
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
So that, all In Christ shall be made alive (future tense).
Do you see the difference here?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-08-2011 at 07:29 PM..
Reason: typo
Shall be made alive is a reference to any who obey the gospel. So yes it is speaking future. All who obey shall be made alive in Christ.
Kate
Regarding the timing of when things happen...it's important to understand the order that Jesus gives them, here:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
What is most remarkable about this scripture is that the Greek verbs translated as "heareth" and "believeth" are in the Greek present tense. So is the word "hath" with regards to everlasting life.
The word "passed", however, is in the Greek perfect tense, a past tense event, all ready completed.
The one believing has already passed into life. Passing into life is not a future event waiting to happen as a result of hearing and believing. Passing into life (regeneration if you will) actually proceeds the hearing and believing. Hearing and believing are the results, or perhaps the evidence, of having already passed from death to life.
In a very real sense, those who hear the Gospel and believe, have already been made alive. Those who do not believe the Gospel, have not been made alive.
You obviously didn't read the post. I adresses Rom. 8:1, 28-30
It is those who are IN CHRIST who are predestinated. It is THOSE WHO LOVE THE LORD who are predestinated. Read the entire post again.
Katie
The reason they came to Jeshua was Because they were predestined...Do you even know what predestined means?...
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