No one can be saved by trying to keep the Law (believers, scriptures)

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Lee, and Everyone reading this, please read it carefully.

The eternal salvation of your soul occurs in an instant. In a moment of time. In a point of time. The very moment you place your trust, your faith in Jesus Christ, you have eternal life as of that very moment. You are saved before you can do any works of any kind.

Having simply believed on Christ, you were saved without any works, or any obedience, except that you obeyed the command to believe in Christ. Acts 16:31 'Believe (Aorist Imperative Active. It's a command) in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

Excerpt:
The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you've done that, you've exercised the obedience of faith.
The Obedience Which Is Faith--Romans 1:5 and 16:26 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1993/93july3.html - broken link)


What did Jesus Himself say about the work which endures to eternal life?

John 6: 27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal.''

He was then asked what the (works - plural) of God were.

V28] 'They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may work the works (erga -Plural) of God?'' Notice that they asked about works as opposed to one work.

v29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work (ergon - Singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''

Those who had asked Jesus this question thought that there were works which they had to do for eternal life. Jesus corrected them by saying that there was but one work (and that was a play on words). He told them that the work of God which would endure to eternal life was to believe in Him.

To believe in Him. To have faith in Him. And what is faith? It is nothing more than this;

HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.
Strong's Greek: 4100. ??????? (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust


To have eternal life, simply be persuaded by means of the gospel through the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ is who He said He is and that He died on the cross for YOU. At that moment, you are eternally saved.


I said earlier that Jesus had made a play on words when He called believing in Him a work. That's because as Ephesians 2:8 says, 'For by grace you have been saved (actually - you are saved - Present Indicative) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Jesus Himself said as recorded in John 6:29 that you have eternal life simply by believing in Him. And to believe in Him simply means to be persuaded of who He is and what He did on the cross for YOU.

Furthermore, grace is the antithesis of works. Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Thanks Mike.

What groups of the Parable of the Sowers would you say are saved? Would you say the people outside the Kingdom of God (Matt 7) are
saved?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Steph1980

Thanks for your opinion. Paul said he works with all the energy that God supplies, and that's exactly what I will do It is not contrary to grace at all, to access God's grace for help in time of need and to depend on Him wholly for the grace to obey, which in turn leads to the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.



You're right, I don't believe that "faith alone" does anything for anyone. Can such a faith save anyone?



I believe that grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and live righteously in the world. Sorry you feel that I don't have a proper understanding of grace, but that's what the Bible says about grace.

Bless you Mike, I hope you don't take personal offense to my statements. I don't condemn you, as I previously stated it is not someone's personal 'statement of faith' that determines their salvation. You can preach this, but still be an obedient, faithful follower of Jesus yourself. Your teaching might be wrong, but it doesn't mean you are personally not a disciple. I know many godly people who hold to this theology you put forward.

I think it is dangerous theology for the church as it can lead to licentiousness and false assurance of salvation for many.

God bless,
Steph

Salvation is by grace through faith. Not by works, not by obedience. You do not know what grace is and you do not know what faith is. You are promoting a legalistic gospel.

There is no such thing as a false assurance of salvation. The believer is eternally secure as of the initial moment of faith in Christ. A person is saved the moment he has faith in Christ.

Nor does the possibility of someone living licentiously negate the reality of the believers eternal security.

In promoting salvation by works and by obedience, it is people such as yourself who are leading people astray from the true gospel of grace.


And though I have said it numerous times you just can't pick up on it. There is a distinction between what is required for eternal salvation - faith alone in Christ alone, and what is required to be a disciple after having been eternally saved - commitment to put Christ first in your life. They are two entirely different things.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Mike...
The only problem is that these people \ churches that you refer to have a reformed background....which some of the reformed positions are not correct.
The scriptures do not teach:

• Millennialism
• OSAS
• decision theology
• reformed's teaching of the sacraments (baptism and communion)

You are in error in disputing what they teach. And I will not take the thread off topic by engaging in a discussion about it.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by lee9786

Thanks Mike.

What groups of the Parable of the Sowers would you say are saved? Would you say the people outside the Kingdom of God (Matt 7) are
saved?

I'll get to this a little later. I have some things to do.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I'll get to this a little later. I have some things to do.

Thanks. I can't help but think of this when thinking of fruitless branches.

Luke 13:6-9

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Now I'm sure the popular Theologian Scholar would point out this is in reference to Israel, but why wouldn't it apply also to Christian believers?

God wants fruit. If we aren't producing fruit, than we are not desirable from God's perspective it seems. This is consistent theme throughout the Scriptures.

Give it a couple years to see if it doesn't produce fruit. Than if it doesn't... take it away (John 15) > first 3 in the Parable of Sowers?

Hebrews 6:4-8

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Mark 11:11-22

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

16And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

18And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19And when even was come, he went out of the city.

20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

The Lord cursed the fig tree that didn't produce fruit. Once again many would point out this is in direct reference to Israel, but why wouldn't it also apply to the Church? God does not change (Malachi 3:6)

Where Israel stumbled at that stumbling stone - as Paul points out - is obtaining the righteousness by faith not by works of the Law. But Faith, as described in the Scriptures, produces Obedience to Faith - Spirit let works.

Romans 9

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I can find no examples where those mentioned of Faith did not obey God's will.

Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There are plenty of examples where those Justified weren't sinless, but they obeyed.

If I believe a bus is going to hit me if I don't get off the road, I'm going to move. Is that a "Work"? The belief is demonstrated through action. We can't escape choices. How we respond to choices is our "works".

It says what doesn't produce fruit is cursed. Read this the opposite of blessed? Sure sounds like it.

I think there may be a confusion in how we are defining "Works" and other theological terms. I've heard belief and trust/obey are virtually interchangeable words.

something to check out.

[Mikelee81]

Just opened my Bible and started reading this..

Jeremiah 24

1The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

2One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

3Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

4Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

7And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

8And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

Good figs vs bad figs. Fruit vs Thorns. Wheat vs Tares.

Giving a "new" heart being born again? The Lord says they shall return unto me. So maybe it's a declaration. All that are truly born-again shall produce fruit? It's not an option. We've been given a new heart.

How about that one for the theological seminary?

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by lee9786

the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Too funny

[twin.spin]

Steph....

Originally Posted by Steph1980

On the other hand, some of the obvious lies you speak make me wonder if you are deliberately trying to deceive people? I honestly don't want to think that.

Nor should you make such accusations. Saying "obvious lies" carries all together connotations rather than differences of pov amoung believers.
Mike is a believer ... and what makes that so is because of whom he believes in:

1. God is Triune
2. Jesus is God
3. salvation by faith ... not by works \ obedience to the law
4. the work God requires .... to believe

Originally Posted by Steph1980

Discipleship is most definitely necessary for salvation. Jesus never told his apostles to go into all the world making believers out of them. Even demons believe! He said make disciples. Really, Jesus' words are very plain. It breaks my heart to see how you (or those who have instructed you) have spun the words of the Lord to mean pretty much the opposite of what He said.

Demons do not believe as understood by having a belief as Jesus as their God. Demons however do know who Jesus is... and for the most part Jesus commanded them to shut up about it.

Originally Posted by Steph1980

"Jesus never told his apostles to go into all the world making believers out of them"

Is that suppose to be a trick question ....

• to be "disciples" wouldn't one have to be a "believers" to be a disciple
• and "all nations"... to do that would that not entail going into all the world

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, [ how ] baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Should we discuss your statement in the context of "spun the words of the Lord to mean pretty much the opposite of what He said. " because it sure reads that way.

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Steph....


Nor should you make such accusations. Saying "obvious lies" carries all together connotations rather than differences of pov amoung believers.
Mike is a believer ... and what makes that so is because of whom he believes in:

1. God is Triune
2. Jesus is God
3. salvation by faith ... not by works \ obedience to the law
4. the work God requires .... to believe

Demons do not believe as understood by having a belief as Jesus as their God. Demons however do know who Jesus is... and for the most part Jesus commanded them to shut up about it.





Is that suppose to be a trick question ....

• to be "disciples" wouldn't one have to be a "believers" to be a disciple
• and "all nations"... to do that would that not entail going into all the world

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, [ how ] baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Should we discuss your statement in the context of "spun the words of the Lord to mean pretty much the opposite of what He said. " because it sure reads that way.

Hi twin, have you even looked at the context in which my statements are made? ie: the entire dialogue between Mike555 and I on this thread? Just wondering, because from your commentary above, it doesn't seem like you read more than this one post of mine. You've also quote-mined my comments unfairly, making my post seem highly defamatory. I will let that go but please read our entire exchange if you haven't done so. You will find that many of the things you wish to discuss about my statements become clearer then.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Steph1980

Hi twin, have you even looked at the context in which my statements are made? ie: the entire dialogue between Mike555 and I on this thread? Just wondering, because from your commentary above, it doesn't seem like you read more than this one post of mine.

Twin seldom reads and almost never thinks about posts that do not regurgitate his rote dogma. His posts are pro forma rote recitations of a fixed dogma devoid of thought or reason. They are the epitome of unreasoning credulity. I suspect Twin believes it is sacrilege or somehow evil to question or think about the motives of God and their ramifications.