Could a "Loving God" Actually Say Something This Callous? (prayer, Bible)
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That's the scripture most people use to prove a person can "get saved" and then "lose their salvation", which of course, Mike555 doesn't believe. No one is getting out of jail free. We are still subjected to death and much suffering and tribulation by the very fact that we are spiritual beings trapped in a mortal body.
When you learn to walk in unconditional forgiveness you can. While you remain in unforgiveness towards someone it rebounds back to us.What we give returns to us.
The Bible doesn't talk about God forgiving us unconditionally. Of course there are penalties for sin.
Not Christ dying as a substitute for us. He who knew no sin became sin for us that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive.
As through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life.
At this point I'm not sure there is much else we can say here. We've showed you the scriptures. You can either believe them or not. At this point it's kind of pointless. You apparently don't want to know or believe it.
The Bible doesn't talk about God forgiving us unconditionally. Of course there are penalties for sin.
You obviously do not understand the law of reaping and sowing and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you.
What is the measure of your forgiveness ? . What is glaringly apparent is fudamentalst Christianity is holding the world in unforgiveness. When will it ever learn to forgive the trespasses of the world ?.
This is disturbing on so many levels. I tend to believe that Jesus never uttered these hateful words and they certainly don't demonstrate this incredible love that universal redemptionists believe God possess for His children regardless of how sinful a life they led.
To begin with, we are not even talking about sin here. The people crying, "Lord, Lord" from all appearances are not even cognizant they did anything wrong. They did this and they did that in Jesus' name and we are told nothing of what their intentions were in doing it, though we can surmise from Jesus' reply that their actions were without holy intentions. Still, the things they did were not "sinful" per se. So how could Jesus so callously write them off with "Depart from me!" if He is this totally loving understanding Savior who came to save the world?
This is not the Jesus of the Prodigal Son who told of the Father welcoming His errant child back, no questions asked, after the child lived the most horrendous kind of sinful life as a reprobate. The actions of those crying plaintively, "Lord, Lord" pale in comparison to this child's filth and yet the father (God) welcomes him back with open arms while pushing away without so much as a tear those who cry for mercy and don't even know what it was they did wrong?
Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these words. Any of us in eternity at judgement could be crying, "Lord, Lord, didn't I give to the poor and help out those in distress and preach your word" only to have Jesus say, "I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity."
As I said, I find the contrast between the Jesus of the lost sheep and this cold and unloving Jesus so startling as to think we are talking about two totally different people. Oddly enough, it is only in Matthew that all of these hateful things appear. Witness the infamous "Depart from Me into the eternal flames prepared for the devil et.al" Luke 13:23-27 is excepted because it deals only with the Jews who denounced Him.
Can some UR'ers address how they can believe this Jesus of Matthew will be the same Jesus who will welcome the most vile sinner into His loving embrace? Again, I think a case can be made that Jesus never said these hateful words; that like countless other verses His words were either "doctored" or outright fabricated.
Thrill you have to bear in mind when Jesus said seemingly harsh words such as this, that generally they were directed at those who trusted in themselves and condemned others. He always raised the bar when they were present to leave them in no doubt that their standards of making the outside of the cup clean always fell short of the glory of God and revealed what they were when the mask of religion is removed.
The woman caught in adultery is a perfect example of this seemingly harsh words for those condemning the sinner and gracious words to her caught n adultery. The modern day condemning Pharisee is always quick to point out that Jesus said to her "Go sin no more", which is par for the cause for them because in their judgemental condemning minds sin is greater than grace(sin is ever before its eyes)The correct interpretation of what Jesus said is because neither do I condemn you, you are free to go and sin no more,because no condemnation sets you free from the law of sin and death( Romans 8:1-2).
The penal substitution or atonement appeasers all believe in a wrathful God who would actually care so much about our ancestors' eating of a fruit in disobedience that He would condemn our entire species to eternal hellfire or annihilation. Of course, they had just been created and were immature and weak in Spirit . . . so He knew they would eat the fruit before He forbid it . . . but He is so egotistical and irrational that He condemned them and everyone of us since anyway. He then demanded that His Son be tortured and crucified to pay for our disobedience to satisfy some warped, twisted and completely incomprehensible justice. Ostensibly this is so it would not be necessary for us to be tormented in eternal hellfire or suffer annihilation . . . except it somehow isn't enough. We have to force ourselves to believe a bunch of improbable and contradictory "precepts and doctrines of men" or we aren't qualified to be saved from those consequences. Sorry . . . if you can believe that . . . rationality is definitely not your strong suit.
Pcamps is right. Christ came out of love to correct the savage and primitive beliefs and superstitions about God that plagued our ancestors and prevented them from achieving agape love. They remained largely savages. Christ came in human form to achieve the proper state of mind (Agape love) in a human consciousness so it would be perfectly identical to God's consciousness. He taught and displayed God's true nature (Agape love) to our savage ancestors and reaped the only consequence possible from those savage primitives . . . scourging and crucifixion. God and Jesus knew what our barbaric ancestors would do to Him because of His message of love . . . but Jesus was willing to endure it in perfect love for us ALL . . . proving to us that God truly is a loving (not smiting) God
(Forgive them Father, they know not what they do).
Christ's death also produced another important thing for us. His death and rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit made His Holy Spirit available to us all in our human consciousness as the Comforter. Thus Christ now abides within us all to teach and guide us to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . just as God's Holy Spirit did for Jesus (the "Father has taught me," etc.). We are ALL saved because all human consciousness is connected to God's consciousness by the human consciousness of Christ. It is in that manner that He is the ONLY Way to God. No other consciousness is identical to God's . . . ONLY Christ's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
Fantastic post, Mystic. It will take our death (the death of Adam's body) to rip the veil from people's eyes. That is the purpose of death. Even something as awful as death has a Holy purpose.
Thanks, Heartsong. Christ truly eliminated any concern over death of this physical body and His Holy Spirit comforts those who listen to Him no matter what this mortal stage of life brings. We overcome and endure in the sure and faithful knowledge that He has prepared a place for us ALL with God.
You obviously do not understand the law of reaping and sowing and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you.
What is the measure of your forgiveness ? . What is glaringly apparent is fudamentalst Christianity is holding the world in unforgiveness. When will it ever learn to forgive the trespasses of the world ?.
Why should we? Why does anyone forgive? In your liberal brand of Christianity there are no repercussions for sin...no penalty...no ransom was paid. Your god is a weak, unjust, unholy being.
Why should we? Why does anyone forgive? In your liberal brand of Christianity there are no repercussions for sin...no penalty...no ransom was paid. Your god is a weak, unjust, unholy being.
And here is the reason the fundamental brand of Christianity is anti Christ.
Nailed to a cross scorned by those who put him there , Jesus Christ "Father forgive them they know not what they do"............. Fundamental christianity says "why should we forgive you ?"........ Most certainly not the mind or heart of Christ.
And here is the reason the fundamental brand of Christianity is anti Christ.
Nailed to a cross scorned by those who put him there , Jesus Christ "Father forgive them they know not what they do"............. Fundamental christianity says "why should we forgive you ?".
Exposing those that contradict .
If you think that's the only reason God became a man and submitted to crucifixion---so he could make a good will gesture that accomplished nothing but to give us warm fuzzies....that's sad. And your god is not the God of the Bible.
You've got a pointless faith if you believe your God chose to die on a cross just to say "I love you".
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissionary
If you think that's the only reason God became a man and submitted to crucifixion---so he could make a good will gesture that accomplished nothing but to give us warm fuzzies....that's sad. And your god is not the God of the Bible.
Well said on both accounts - I'm still waiting for a meaningful response.
At least other theories of the atonement (though I disagree with their primary emphasis) actually accomplish something,
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