Could a "Loving God" Actually Say Something This Callous? (hell, beliefs)
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I have made myself perfectly clear and penal substitution is not scriptural.
The penal substitution of Jesus Christ on the cross is the very basis by which God can offer salvation to man and be appropriated by those who place their faith in Christ Jesus.
Isiah 53:5
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
To be eternally saved a person must understand that Christ died for his sins, and in understanding that place his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
I agree. It sounds like you are arguing for a penal-substitutionary view of the atonement (which I agree with), but cannot get pcamps to explicitly state what his view is (or at least what it accomplishes and why). His view sounds like some variant of the "moral influence" theory.
Perhaps you might want to look into the Christus Victor view of atonement which predated the penal substitution view by 1000 years.
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
(NOTICE THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN THIS NEXT STATEMENT ABOUT WHO DOES THE BLINDING OR REVEALING OF THE TRUTH --- it is not a matter of any man's choice or free will whether to see and believe. God does this for a great purpose.) 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HEHARDENED THEIR HEART,SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART,AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
...this just blows apart the UR's belief AGAIN! into pieces!...His purpose...so they WOULD NOT BE CONVERTED NOR HEALED.
Looks like everyone will not be transformed after all....huh...? Yep.
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
(NOTICE THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN THIS NEXT STATEMENT ABOUT WHO DOES THE BLINDING OR REVEALING OF THE TRUTH --- it is not a matter of any man's choice or free will whether to see and believe. God does this for a great purpose.) 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HEHARDENED THEIR HEART,SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART,AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
This with reference to what I said in post #29. The judgment of the nations and the great white throne judgment are future events and it is Jesus who will be the judge.
When Christ was on the cross it was the Father who judged the sins of the world which Jesus bore in His own body.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-01-2012 at 03:14 PM..
I have made myself perfectly clear and penal substitution is not scriptural.
What I am unclear on is what exactly your view accomplishes. You say that Christ's death demonstrates God's love for us (which I agree with - Romans 8), but then don't follow up on that at all. Why does God express his love in this way? What purpose does it serve?
Also, how is penal substitution unscriptural? (before you jump all over this, I'd prefer you answer the first part though)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Perhaps you might want to look into the Christus Victor view of atonement which predated the penal substitution view by 1000 years.
I am familiar with it, tyvm, it's just not relevant to this discussion going on as it does not appear to be what pcamps is advocating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissionary
[Christus Victor] is a heretical view that was not taught by the apostles.
I think "heretical" is a bit strong of a word. I think it has some deficiencies as well as some positive traits (and as mentioned, I think P-S is the best model), but I would be wary of tossing out the H-word.
Last edited by snowdenscold; 08-01-2012 at 03:23 PM..
The view that Christ is victorious and rescues humanity from sin and death is heretical?
If it denies penal substitution, yes.
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Yep.
