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Originally Posted by Pleroo If "god" tormented 90% of humanity forever, or even 1 person, I would not praise that "god". A "god" with that kind of nature could not be trusted to not turn on anyone else and torture them too, so I might grovel at his feet out of fear. But if I did that, it would simply show a lack of love and integrity in my own soul, to be willing to watch a fellow human suffer for eternity and not try to do something about it because I'm too worried about saving myself.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD Amen, Pleroo!!!! Anyone who could take pride in praising such an evil god has no idea what Christ represented and taught . . . and nothing to be proud about in such mindless approbation.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
What this tells me is that their regard for God is conditional. God is only praised on their terms.
God is only praised because He is praiseworthy. We do not abdicate our moral sensibilities because it is God. God is the source of our moral sensibilities. He couldn't possibly want us to ignore the moral values He gave us on a bogus pretext using absurd human excuses that "God's ways are not our ways" or "God is mysterious" or "Whatever God does is moral and good regardless what it looks like to us." Our God does NOT say "Do as I say . . . NOT as I do" . . . that is for human priests and preachers. We have morals BECAUSE God "wrote them in our hearts" and expects us to use them to discern Good and Evil under the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter). You can abdicate that responsibility . . . we won't.
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I guess God is supposed to love unconditionally - but you are allowed to be conditional in your worship of Him. Wonder what God thinks about that...
Christ exemplified that unambiguously. He loved us ALL unconditionally . . . even His torturers and murderers!!! We will believe Christ about the true nature of our God. You can wonder what He thinks about that if you want.
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God is only praised because He is praiseworthy. We do not abdicate our moral sensibilities because it is God. God is the source of our moral sensibilities. He couldn't possibly want us to ignore the moral values He gave us on a bogus pretext using absurd human excuses that "God's ways are not our ways" or "God is mysterious" or "Whatever God does is moral and good regardless what it looks like to us." Our God does NOT say "Do as I say . . . NOT as I do" . . . that is for human priests and preachers. We have morals BECAUSE God "wrote them in our hearts" and expects us to use them to discern Good and Evil under the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter). You can abdicate that responsibility . . . we won't.Christ exemplified that unambiguously. He loved us ALL unconditionally . . . even His torturers and murderers!!! We will believe Christ about the true nature of our God. You can wonder what He thinks about that if you want.
Absurd human excuses? ... the Lord said...
Isaiah 55:6-9 - Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Now if don't believe He said this - it just proves my earlier statement that you want God on your terms.
Nobody is abdicating or ignoring anything. God's justice and righteousness is as much a part of Him as His love.
God is only praised because He is praiseworthy. We do not abdicate our moral sensibilities because it is God. God is the source of our moral sensibilities. He couldn't possibly want us to ignore the moral values He gave us on a bogus pretext using absurd human excuses that "God's ways are not our ways" or "God is mysterious" or "Whatever God does is moral and good regardless what it looks like to us." Our God does NOT say "Do as I say . . . NOT as I do" . . . that is for human priests and preachers. We have morals BECAUSE God "wrote them in our hearts" and expects us to use them to discern Good and Evil under the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter). You can abdicate that responsibility . . . we won't.Christ exemplified that unambiguously. He loved us ALL unconditionally . . . even His torturers and murderers!!! We will believe Christ about the true nature of our God. You can wonder what He thinks about that if you want.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Absurd human excuses? ... the Lord said...
Isaiah 55:6-9 - Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Now if don't believe He said this - it just proves my earlier statement that you want God on your terms.
Wrong. What was true for our savage ancestors is not true for us. God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant and we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth. YOU are accepting God using the beliefs and superstitions of our ignorant savage ancestors (who had neither) . . . as described in the OT under the veil of ignorance (blind minds). We accept God on Christ's terms . . . as He lifted the veil of ignorance and revealed the Father to us unambiguously by His teachings, example, and even in death.
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Nobody is abdicating or ignoring anything. God's justice and righteousness is as much a part of Him as His love.
What you call justice is the polar opposite. God is just and we will reap what we sow . . . but NOT more than we sow!
God is only praised because He is praiseworthy. We do not abdicate our moral sensibilities because it is God. God is the source of our moral sensibilities. He couldn't possibly want us to ignore the moral values He gave us on a bogus pretext using absurd human excuses that "God's ways are not our ways" or "God is mysterious" or "Whatever God does is moral and good regardless what it looks like to us." Our God does NOT say "Do as I say . . . NOT as I do" . . . that is for human priests and preachers. We have morals BECAUSE God "wrote them in our hearts" and expects us to use them to discern Good and Evil under the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter). You can abdicate that responsibility . . . we won't. Christ exemplified that unambiguously. He loved us ALL unconditionally . . . even His torturers and murderers!!! We will believe Christ about the true nature of our God. You can wonder what He thinks about that if you want.
"The Fundamentalist, desires fragments of stone."
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MysticPhD again.
IF you don't like the message then argue with Jesus!
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
What this tells me is that their regard for God is conditional. God is only praised on their terms.
After the 5,000 were fed, Jesus spoke about eating His flesh and drinking His blood - to which His disciples grumbled that it was a difficult statement - and many did not follow Christ after that.
They were OK when the were being fed and healed - but when they heard something they didn't like, many left. The responses above seem to be very similar. The people wanted Christ on their terms - feed them, heal them, etc. Here, it's all about love, while neglecting His justice.
I guess God is supposed to love unconditionally - but you are allowed to be conditional in your worship of Him. Wonder what God thinks about that...
I believe you forgot this response:
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Love doesn't punish, but it does allow the natural consequences of being out of harmony with love to bear upon our soul and draw us to repentance and change.
What you don't seem to understand is that, yes, God's ways ARE higher than man's ways. Man's idea of "justice" is more often than not, punitive, and excessively so. It's a vengeful mindset that doesn't seem to understand that no matter how much you punish a person, it won't change the affect of whatever wrong they've done on their soul, and it won't heal the damage their wrong-doing has caused their victims.
Whereas the justice which proceeds from God who IS love, is always disciplinary and corrective, and will accomplish it's purpose. God does desire all to be saved (healed at the soul level, not just the physical) and God's justice is part of the process which achieves that salvation. And what would be more healing to a victim then to have the assurance that the person who has harmed them will never harm them again when God's love has changed the heart of the wrong-doer.
Unlike mankind's impotent vengeful punishment, God's loving justice is powerful and achieves God's desire... which is to heal all, both perpetrator and victim.
The thing is - God will do what He is going to do. Whatever will happen in the eons, or whatever you want to call it, He will bring it to pass.
I will praise God regardless of whether He saves everyone, or He punishes 90% of the population forever and ever - because of who He is.
Can you say the same?
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
And I got the following responses...
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
If "god" tormented 90% of humanity forever, or even 1 person, I would not praise that "god". A "god" with that kind of nature could not be trusted to not turn on anyone else and torture them too, so I might grovel at his feet out of fear. But if I did that, it would simply show a lack of love and integrity in my own soul, to be willing to watch a fellow human suffer for eternity and not try to do something about it because I'm too worried about saving myself.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Amen, Pleroo!!!! Anyone who could take pride in praising such an evil god has no idea what Christ represented and taught . . . and nothing to be proud about in such mindless approbation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
What this tells me is that their regard for God is conditional. God is only praised on their terms.
After the 5,000 were fed, Jesus spoke about eating His flesh and drinking His blood - to which His disciples grumbled that it was a difficult statement - and many did not follow Christ after that.
They were OK when the were being fed and healed - but when they heard something they didn't like, many left. The responses above seem to be very similar. The people wanted Christ on their terms - feed them, heal them, etc. Here, it's all about love, while neglecting His justice.
I guess God is supposed to love unconditionally - but you are allowed to be conditional in your worship of Him. Wonder what God thinks about that...
You seem to have hit the nail on the head. They refuse to accept God on His terms which is actually rejection of God. They refuse to accept Jesus on His terms which is also a rejection of Jesus. When you remove the parts of God's Word you don't like and create your own idea of what Jesus must have meant, you are replacing God with your own god, and our only Christ with a christ of your own imagination. God's word tells us there will be such.
Lest we forget these are the very people who sent Jesus to the cross. Those, like we have here, who have changed God's Word and commandments into what they think they should be based on their feelings (some even claim it is christ in them). They are the ones who tried to trap Jesus (like these try to trap Christians today) and in the end had Him killed. I wonder if these would like to kill us off as well.
You seem to have hit the nail on the head. They refuse to accept God on His terms which is actually rejection of God. They refuse to accept Jesus on His terms which is also a rejection of Jesus. When you remove the parts of God's Word you don't like and create your own idea of what Jesus must have meant, you are replacing God with your own god, and our only Christ with a christ of your own imagination. God's word tells us there will be such.
Lest we forget these are the very people who sent Jesus to the cross. Those, like we have here, who have changed God's Word and commandments into what they think they should be based on their feelings (some even claim it is christ in them). They are the ones who tried to trap Jesus (like these try to trap Christians today) and in the end had Him killed. I wonder if these would like to kill us off as well.
The ones who continue to persecute Christ Jesus are the ones who believe, they "hit the nail on the head" with his sacrifice; covering their own sin.
What this tells me is that their regard for God is conditional. God is only praised on their terms.
After the 5,000 were fed, Jesus spoke about eating His flesh and drinking His blood - to which His disciples grumbled that it was a difficult statement - and many did not follow Christ after that.
They were OK when the were being fed and healed - but when they heard something they didn't like, many left. The responses above seem to be very similar. The people wanted Christ on their terms - feed them, heal them, etc. Here, it's all about love, while neglecting His justice.
I guess God is supposed to love unconditionally - but you are allowed to be conditional in your worship of Him. Wonder what God thinks about that...
Well said. God is what He is, and He will not change to appease those who reject His justice. When you reject any aspect of God, you reject God as whole.
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