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You have yet to answer how it is that people have understood it one way for 2000 years and along come you, claiming to have a completely new understanding? How is that not arrogant? You're now claiming your opinion is above everyone else's ?
You keep refusing to understand that it is the ancient ignorance and superstition that I am addressing. You accept it and drink the "carnal milk" as is. I apply the accumulated knowledge of 2000-years to it and see the "solid food" in it.
You keep refusing to understand that it is the ancient ignorance and superstition that I am addressing. You accept it and drink the "carnal milk" as is. I apply the accumulated knowledge of 2000-years to it and see the "solid food" in it.
At least, how you understand it, right? Your understanding of it is much much different than what traditional Christianity has held to.
The Movement meets in the Eastland Mall in Niles, Ohio. Its mottoes are "Forget Religion, Find God" and "Unity in Essentials/Charity in Non-Essentials." They've been hailed as the fastest growing "church" in Ohio. Their worship is very contemporary, spirit-filled and "electric." You can't help but be drawn in. They really have a heart for God and seek to transform and give hope to the Mahoning Valley and NE Ohio. They firmly believe that w/o vision people (figuratively) die. They sponsor a community garden in Warren to provide fresh vegetables for people in need, had a clean-up along the river and are seeking to reach out in many other ways to downtown Warren. They provide coffee, tea and often snacks at all of their services and are very welcoming. Tell me what you think. Have you heard of other churches like this?
Yeah. It sounds like another 'non-denominational' church. The term I've heard is Stealth Baptists.
I understand the appeal of it. But the problem with the "Forget Religion, Find God" mantra is that it almost inevitably leads to a different mantra, namely "Christianity is whatever the pastor thinks it is at this moment." Or, even worse, "Christianity is whatever I think it should be to suit my personal fulfillment at this moment." To be sure, most are positive and life-affirming places. Then again, there are plenty of abuses, too. I mean, there have been legion news stories of the years of these kinds of churches that become cults of personality centered around the guy in the pulpit without the discipline of a denomination to rein in his more messianic and self-aggrandizing impulses.
As far as the outreach you describe, that's pretty much every church that's ever been worth its salt. And as far as the contemporary worship is concerned, I think it's all in the eyes of the beholder. What you might find to be uplifting and spiritual, I find to be hokey, the worship of God succumbing to the entertainment disease. That's why contemporary worship music, with their vapid lyrics and general mindlessness, is the equivalent of fingernails down the blackboard. To me, God is found in the quiet recesses of the soul, making it much harder to hear him speak to you when he is being drowned out by electric guitars.
Hey, if you find fulfillment in that kind of worship, then knock yourself out. It's just not for me.
I'm sorry, Doc. I consider it arrogant to disregard 2000 years of historical Christianity in order to just roll my own theology. When you say "I don't care what God has revealed in the past, I have this NEW teaching", with nothing to back it up by your own opinion, you might as well go found a new cult, because your religion is not likely to bear any resemblance to Christianity.
You "consider it arrogant to disregard 2000 years of historical Christianity in order to just rely in my own theology..." Interesting.
OK, lets go back a bit. You have asked repeatedly what "doctrine" the movement ascribes to. I have answered that the doctrine is very simple and one that most Christians would not have difficulty with -
"UNITY in ESSENTIALS and CHARITY in non -ESSENTIALS" You wanted to know more about doctrine. And I told you.We believe in God the Father, in Jesus Christ, his Only Son, who was MADE man, was CRUCIFIED for us (sacrificial atonement) DIED , and WAS RESUECTED.
HE suts at the RIGHT and of GOD the FATHER. We BELIEVE in THE HOLY SPIRIT the COMFORTER and the ONE WHO brings MOVEMENT, CHANGE and GUIDANCE to the HEART of BELIEVERS.
WE BELIEVE that the HOLY SPIRIT is WORSHIPED and PRAISED along with the FATHER and the SON. We believe that one day, JESUS WILL COME AGAIN in GLORY to JUDGE the LIVING and the dead and that HIS KINGDOM will HAVE NO END.
That is basic Christian Doctrine. About as basic as one can get. All Members of this Church believe this.
These are the essentials. There are people also in Fellowship there that may believe other things that are not essentials.
It is not essential in the Movement to have a certain belief about, or to obsess about the End Times. So there is not a lot of preaching about Eschatology.
We do not eschew all of the world. That is not Biblical. Early Christians were Jews. As such they worshiped that way. They would have had weddings that scholars believe lasted any where from three days to one week. There was dancing, celebration eating and drinking. And the drinking was not apple juice, it was wine. The early churches danced the dances that were part of their culture whether they were Jews or Greeks, and they played music that was part of their culture.
Now what does your church believe that is EXTRA TO the ESSENTIALS?
Like the early church, we don't think that there is anything wrong with that.
Many things through out the years of the Christian Church were added as directives to many different denominations. That's OK by me. If you want to add on to the Essentials, be my guest.
But do not fault other churches for not agreeing with you.
These 2000 year old historical beliefs of Christianity, in your world would seem to include "the singing of the OLD HYMNS"
Really? How OLD are these OLD HYMNS that you insist must be present in order to have a proper church? One hundred years old? Two Hundred Years old? Perhaps Three hundred? The oldest Hymns that I can think of that are in congregational use today are no older than 500 years.
So these OLD HYMNS in the context of the ANCIENT CHURCH, are not all that ANCIENT are they?
Hymns of the Jesus movement, those written by the Vineyard and so forth, may have sounded fresh to the ears of baby boomers in the 1970s.
They sound old and out of date to my children and to other Millennial.
Is it your wish that MUSIC be a stumbling block to salvation of a NEW GENERATION?
What ARE the beliefs of YOUR CHURCH? What IS your church that makes it the GOLD STANDARD of CHRISTIAN CHURCHES?
In this thread you have ragged on The Movement. In yet another thread, you criticized the Episcopal Church.
What church is perfect, in your narrow vision? Oh, there's that word "vision" again.
Please explain to us what doctrine is ABSENT from churches as seemingly different as the Protestant Episcopal Church in America and The Movement of Niles Ohio?
NO ONE in the MOVEMENT has EVER SAID that they don't care about the essential teachings of the Christian Church - in fact THAT is what they do ascribe to, the ANCIENT and ESSENTIAL teachings of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
Not some doctrine that may be useful to you ot to some others, but is not
ESSENTIAL to all Christians.
The point is that you seem to think that the hoops you have laid out have to be jumped through in order to follow Jesus. I don't.
I am not aware of any "hoop" that I have set out. I just believe we should believe in what Jesus taught and revealed about how we are to follow and worship Him. That's all.
You "consider it arrogant to disrgard 2000 years of historical Christianity in order to just rely in my own theology..." Interesting.
OK, lets go back a bit. You have asked repeatedly what "doctrine" the movement ascribes to. I have answered that the doctrine is very simple and one that most Christians would not have difficulty with -
"UNITY in ESSENTIALS and CHARITY in non -ESSENTIALS" You wanted to know more about doctrine.
I was speaking to someone else when I said that. I wasn't talking about your church. As I told you in a previous post, I hope you enjoy your time at this church and that you grow in your faith.
Having said that, you asked me what my church believes. Here is a small statement of our doctrine:
WE BELIEVE:
The supernatural and plenary inspiration of the Scriptures—that they are inerrant and that their teaching and authority are absolute, supreme, final, and complete;
The trinity of the Godhead—God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit;
The personality of God; the personality and deity of Jesus Christ, begotten of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, very God and very man; and the personality of the Holy Spirit;
The resurrection of Jesus Christ—that His body was raised from the dead according to the Scriptures, and that He ascended into Heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God as the believer’s Advocate;
The sinfulness of man—that all human beings are born with a sinful nature, and are totally depraved and need a Savior from sin;
The Atonement—that Jesus Christ became the sinner’s sacrifice before God and died as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world;
The necessity of the new birth—salvation is by grace through faith and not of works; saving faith will maintain good works in the life of the believer,
The literal resurrection of the body, both of the just and of the unjust;
The everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the everlasting punishment of the lost;
The evangelization of the world—the supreme mission of the Church in this age is to preach the Gospel to every creature;
The second coming of Christ according to Scripture.
Maybe no, maybe yes. But the term as applied to nondenominational churches is really apt, because their practices and doctrine are very, very close to those of the Baptists. In many cases, you wouldn't be able slide a piece of paper between the two. Just because they are not formally aligned with the Southern Baptists doesn't really matter.
Nothing is disregarded and no one is saying they don't care what God revealed . . . ONLY HOW IT WAS INTERPRETED in ignorance and superstition. You have completely ignored the significance of the "carnal milk" versus "solid food" aspect of what should have been a living and evolving Christianity. You support a stagnant Christianity . . . which equals a dead Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
You have yet to answer how it is that people have understood it one way for 2000 years and along come you, claiming to have a completely new understanding? How is that not arrogant? You're now claiming your opinion is above everyone else's ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You keep refusing to understand that it is the ancient ignorance and superstition that I am addressing. You accept it and drink the "carnal milk" as is. I apply the accumulated knowledge of 2000-years to it and see the "solid food" in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
At least, how you understand it, right? Your understanding of it is much much different than what traditional Christianity has held to.
That is the travesty of religious leadership retaining the ancient ignorance and superstition to extort obedience and membership. Christ wanted His Gospel of love to be spread through "love of God and each other" . . . the churches spread the Gospel of fear from the OT through beliefs ABOUT Christ, rules and tithing. Which do you think Christ actually would approve?
I am not aware of any "hoop" that I have set out. I just believe we should believe in what Jesus taught and revealed about how we are to follow and worship Him. That's all.
Well, let's go back to your response to my question: Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
The process of coming to a commitment to live in love is an essential doctrine? Why?
If you don't know the answer to that one then you need to start off by learning what a Christian is and how to become one. Maybe you need to start a new thread where you can be taught if you really don't know that.
Sounds like a list of hoops to me. Go ahead and list them.
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