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The short version of my last post is that Christians and churches should be more critical of themselves first and foremost. They should not be condemning people to hell that don't share their views and not all of them do, but certainly it happened in this thread. I believe Jesus might very well find that type of behavior similar to the Pharisees. There have been too many scandals (and one particularly horrendous one with abused children) for us to be judging or talking down to anyone else like we sometimes do. Be more cooperative, tolerant and appreciative. That was all. It does not seem the least bit controversial to me. There is nothing wrong with learning from the past. That is being a good Christian IMO.
With all due respect, I think you are confused. [snip]...We'll respectfully agree to disagree.
Yes, I think you are confused.
Confused as to what Jesus was speaking to when he said "Do not judge or you too will be judged."
For Jesus also said:
"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment" (John 7:24)
Those who drum beat the "do not judge or you too will be judge" as a stand alone verse for their platform just happen to not read the previous verses where Jesus just got done saying not to waste what is holy or valuable on “dogs” or “pigs.” As hard as it may seem, this necessitates determining or judging whether another person fits that category.
So as is most often the case, it's the surrounding verses which teach us that by their fruit (lifestyle including teaching) we will recognize false prophets, and this involves forming judgments. The context, then, tells us that Jesus is not condemning or forbidding all judging, only a certain kind of judging.
Also, the Bible commands for us to admonish and discipline others, identify and expose deeds of darkness,
discipline and restore others caught in a sin, and make personal effort to win back the erring, and “snatch
them from the fire” or rescue them from destruction. ( Matthew 18:15-16, Galatians 6:1, Ephesians 5:11, Colossians 3:16, and Jude 23, in their contexts)
Confused as to what Jesus was speaking to when he said "Do not judge or you too will be judged."
For Jesus also said:
"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment" (John 7:24)
Those who drum beat the "do not judge or you too will be judge" as a stand alone verse for their platform just happen to not read the previous verses where Jesus just got done saying not to waste what is holy or valuable on “dogs†or “pigs.†As hard as it may seem, this necessitates determining or judging whether another person fits that category.
So as is most often the case, it's the surrounding verses which teach us that by their fruit (lifestyle including teaching) we will recognize false prophets, and this involves forming judgments. The context, then, tells us that Jesus is not condemning or forbidding all judging, only a certain kind of judging.
Also, the Bible commands for us to admonish and discipline others, identify and expose deeds of darkness,
discipline and restore others caught in a sin, and make personal effort to win back the erring, and “snatch
them from the fire†or rescue them from destruction. ( Matthew 18:15-16, Galatians 6:1, Ephesians 5:11, Colossians 3:16, and Jude 23, in their contexts)
Was I not at least slightly admonishing (or at least calling attention to) some Christians for saying people were going to hell and that it is reserved for God? BTW, I would hope the church child abuse scandal was a deed of darkness that was finally exposed, too.
As to surrounding verses, I plan to do some additional Bible reading this week. I'll let you know if there is a change of opinion on my part. I just do not feel comfortable making even a verbal or written statement as to someone being eternally condemned. I prefer to respect the verses that tell us not to judge. God will make that decision, so it strikes me as unnecessary and even rubbing salt in the wound when people have enough to deal with these days.
There are significantly more verses in the Bible that command us to be respectful, kind and tolerant to each other than there are that tell us to admonish others. In fact, Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees, who practiced the admonishment of people different than themselves more than others. OK, maybe a tie with the money changers.
Anyways despite any differences, I truly appreciate your much more respectful and informative tone in this post. I may change my mind about a detail or two, but doubt I will change my basic philosophy.
You could have fired back aggressively as my last post was assertive for sure, but provided a reasonable post here. Thank you.
Was I not at least slightly admonishing (or at least calling attention to) some Christians for saying people were going to hell and that it is reserved for God? BTW, I would hope the church child abuse scandal was a deed of darkness that was finally exposed, too.
As to surrounding verses, I plan to do some additional Bible reading this week. I'll let you know if there is a change of opinion on my part. I just do not feel comfortable making even a verbal or written statement as to someone being eternally condemned. I prefer to respect the verses that tell us not to judge. God will make that decision, so it strikes me as unnecessary and even rubbing salt in the wound when people have enough to deal with these days.
There are significantly more verses in the Bible that command us to be respectful, kind and tolerant to each other than there are that tell us to admonish others. In fact, Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees, who practiced the admonishment of people different than themselves more than others. OK, maybe a tie with the money changers.
Anyways despite any differences, I truly appreciate your much more respectful and informative tone in this post. I may change my mind about a detail or two, but doubt I will change my basic philosophy.
You could have fired back aggressively as my last post was assertive for sure, but provided a reasonable post here. Thank you.
Being that I didn't want to make my second reply too long, I should also have said that a wholesome judging is a part of all this. We are called to judge with discernment and especially in a gentle spirit of humility that seeks to help, not hurt.
Sadly ... too often a gentle spirit of humility that seeks to help does not occur in the heat of the moment.
I do apologize for the tone of the first op. My intent wasn't to disrespectful.
If a person did this at one point in their life, but no longer believe in God or want anything to do with him, will they go to heaven simply because they confessed and believed at one point in their life, but rejected God in the end?
People don't reject God, they reject what they don't believe.
What's the problem in that..? You either believe something or you don't.
You cannot FORCE belief, nor would you want to.
I personally believe that "every knee will bow". Not out of fear or terror or "right before they're thrown into eternal flames.." But that every knee will bow out of the sheer WEIGHT of His LOVE.
In my opinion, one who self identifies as a christian, yet who believes God will cause an eternity of suffering for some of the people that He created, are further away from the true picture of God than an atheist who doesn't even believe that there IS a God.
People don't reject God, they reject what they don't believe.
What's the problem in that..? You either believe something or you don't.
You cannot FORCE belief, nor would you want to.
I personally believe that "every knee will bow". Not out of fear or terror or "right before they're thrown into eternal flames.." But that every knee will bow out of the sheer WEIGHT of His LOVE.
In my opinion, one who self identifies as a christian, yet who believes God will cause an eternity of suffering for some of the people that He created, are further away from the true picture of God than an atheist who doesn't even believe that there IS a God.
sparrow
Well said, sparrow!
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Will former Christians that became Atheists go to heaven?
" But that every knee will bow out of the sheer WEIGHT of His LOVE.
