Will former Christians that became Atheists go to heaven? (preach, Kingdom, worship)
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I know you have difficulty distinguishing between love toward people and love toward doctrine . . . so it is not surprising that you confuse a lack of love for doctrine with a lack of love for people. You also confuse judging precepts and doctrines with judging people. I have tried many times to help you see the distinction, Finn . . . but you seem unable or unwilling.
No, I do not have such difficulties, I just pointed out the hypocrisy in your comments. Your deflection does nothing to change it. You were talking about people, not doctrines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD I am always taken aback by the lack of love displayed by some of those who claim to be Christian, sparrow.
There is no hell of the type most people believe in. I don't think there is any ambiguity in my post, Finn. ONLY God knows and ONLY God decides. What about that is confusing to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN
I agree only God can make that decision, but if his word says where unbelievers end up, do you believe someone who was saved, but later on in life became an atheist and reject God and die unrepentant with that hate in their heart for God is going to heaven?
That pretty much makes the Christan walk in life and trying to act holy and be like Jesus pointless , if all you have to do is confess and believe and you can do as you please from that point on and still get the same end reward as someone who turned down all the sinful temptations in life.
That is what OSAS teaches and some on here actually think people like atheists will go to heaven because they were once saved as a kid or teen. WHy would God reward a person who actaully hates him and wants nothing to do with him. For that atheist, Heaven would be actual hell considering they would have to be with God forever.
Christian Universalism is NOT OSAS. We will reap what we sow . . . just not more or less than we sow. It is NOT about reward or punishment. It is about consequences of compatibility or incompatibility with God's agape love, period. You can't fake that or trick anyone or beg your way out of it. The parts of our lives that are not compatible with God's agape love or Christ's love for us all . . . simply will not survive our physical death. They will be refined out as dross . . . if they have not been repented out.
I sincerely accept it and my tone could have been better, too. I did some additional reading and still it seems like we are on a short leash to judge. It added some context, but does not change my basic viewpoint.
Anyways, one of the big "no-no's" I have for myself in my Christian walk is to avoid condemning any group of people to hell. If I do that, I believe I am practicing a form of hatred. That is just the standard I have for myself and believe God also has for me. I respectfully agree to disagree with others who do not view it that way.
I understand that people have hesitancy like yours but one of the warnings from Jesus to a Christian must be repeated:
Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
There is one of several examples of a answer to the OP from Jesus that is not being judgmental on a Christian's part but repeating the truth.
A former Christian that becomes a atheist is "the salt [that] loses its saltiness".
And what does Jesus say what happens to such a person being "thrown out" and being "trampled underfoot".
What happens to the "thrown out \ trampled underfoot" ....
Thrown out:
Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the
darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Trampled underfoot:
Matthew 22:44
"The Lord said to my Lord: ' Sit at my right hand until Iput your enemies under your feet.' ”
Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my
right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’
1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
they do not go to heaven, in fact they are enemies of Jesus.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-19-2014 at 04:02 PM..
Reason: spacing gremlins
I understand that people have hesitancy like yours but one of the warnings from Jesus to a Christian must be repeated:
Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
There is one of several examples of a answer to the OP from Jesus that is not being judgmental on a Christian's part but repeating the truth.
A former Christian that becomes a atheist is "the salt [that] loses its saltiness".
And what does Jesus say what happens to such a person being "thrown out" and being "trampled underfoot".
What happens to the "thrown out \ trampled underfoot" ....
Thrown out:
Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the
darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Trampled underfoot:
Matthew 22:44
"The Lord said to my Lord: ' Sit at my right hand until Iput your enemies under your feet.' ”
Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my
right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’
1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
they do not go to heaven, in fact they are enemies of Jesus.
Matthew 25:40 "I tell you the truth. Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me"
Now some have even interpreted this to mean when someone condemns someone else that they consider among the least, they are actually condemning Jesus as well.
Romans 2:1-5 "You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things.
We could do "dueling verses" longer. It is easy to pick and choose the verses we want to take literally and those we want a context interpretation about.
You did not like Matthew 7:1 telling us not to judge others, so you went the context route in an earlier post, but quote these other verses above in stand alone form. It is clearly stated.
BTW, your verses still clearly state these are God's decisions. His authority, not ours.
The bottom line for me is when it comes down to these gray areas where some verses can be found justifying different actions or beliefs, I choose a conservative course that respects God's authority and limits my judgements which could be mistaken. You are free to believe as you please.
God clearly warned us about judging too and I am staying with that. Each of us has to weigh these two different warnings and make the decision that we believe best respects God IMO.
I appreciate you starting the post about understanding my hesitancy to condemn someone else. I also understand your passion and beliefs. We'll leave it there hopefully on an agree to disagree tone. Thank you for sharing.
Last edited by chessgeek; 06-19-2014 at 05:21 PM..
Tell me, can you point to any conversation that you had (other than the typical target group that holds to all of the Biblical truths) that takes what you say beyond the surface talking points and actually apply what you're saying to them specifically?
Remember this OP from 08\2011:
Why doesn't UR theology oppose any other faith\theology other than "By faith alone, Jesus alone, before death" ....?
First line of post #1
"Someone point to where UR is going nose to nose against atheism with the same intensity (or the other way around) in this "Christian forum"
you didn't then ... have you done so? I'm sure the gotcha crowd would be more than happy to reference it
------------------------------------------------------
Remember this OP from 06\2012 (which was the follow up to the above)
Why would God command all people everywhere to repent... if love is all there is?
First line of post #1
It was asked of me from a friend here (who is atheist) .. why did Jesus have to die? [emphasis on "why"]
you didn't then ... have you done so lately?
if so where? ...... if not, why not?
Fact is that what I did in my reply was to give an example just how inapplicable or how hollow the talking points would be if you were to actually converse with me being an adamant atheist.
I honestly am having a hard time trying to figure out what it is you are trying to say or if this is even directed at me?
Sparrow,
I understand your intentions .... but I sometimes I think you get so caught up with emotions that I don't think you listen to yourself.
So now you're trying to paint me as "emotional" and "not listening to myself".
Projections. Nice try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
You seem to just gloss over what a atheist by definition is, like you're being bothered by some little detail label ...so let's just go one with the playbook.
How can an atheist remain an atheist (who by definition doesn't believe in the true God ... let alone any god) if as you say:
People don't reject God, they reject what they don't believe.
That doesn't make any sense when we're talking about the mindset of a atheist.
Such a person who rejects what they don't believe is then rejecting being a atheist.
"Such a person who rejects what they don't believe is then rejecting being a atheist" <--- Say what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Nor does this make any logical sense when we're talking about the mindset of a atheist.
"You cannot FORCE belief" then to say later "But that every knee will bow out of the sheer WEIGHT of His LOVE."
the two are not compatible from a logical argument ... someone is going to be "FORCED" to change their belief if "sheer weight" is what's going to make " every knee will bow".
Then you misunderstand. (By the way, not all "atheists" have the same "mindset" you know. Just like not all "christians" have the same "mindset".) Anyway, you have misunderstood.
I do NOT believe that the belief will be forced. AT ALL. There is NO FORCE involved. Love does not force it's own way, it allows things to progress and evolve naturally. Love does not NEED to FORCE itself, unlike the petty, tyrant god some believe in. "Believe in me or I'll torture you forever... rahhh!!!!"
Please. Give me a break. That's mankind's insecurities projecting onto God.
It is my personal belief that ALL of mankind will be overwhelmed by the true nature of the Creator. Which is pure, agape love. I understand that someone who happens to be atheist may find that remark somewhat arrogant, or I don't know... it's hard to put into words. I can imagine if I were an atheist, and here is someone saying "Well you don't believe now, but you will!" and shaking their head at that and laughing... . But it is MY personal belief about Life and God and mankind. I don't expect others to agree with it, I'm just sharing my view.
My way of seeing it, there will be a good deal of those who were atheists, who will recognize God... (they will recognize LOVE because they themselves were very loving, and dwelled in love.) While there will be many "christians" or other religious people who will NOT recognize God, though they think they know God so well. They will NOT recognize love, because they did NOT LOVE. They did not dwell in love. They set up residence in the house of judgement and condemnation.
"When Father... when did we do these things..." some will ask incredulously... thinking of their "non-belief". Yet they may be among the ones who were the closest TO God. Which makes perfect sense to me.
Yes, to ME.. labels mean very little. Again, it is the content of your character, and condition of your heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I realize that any substantive challenge to this ideal of yours may be shielded by throwing out the "your being rude" defense ... but that really isn't going to hold up just because you don't like certain things that Jesus said which speaks to the condemning and God's wrath remaining on those who reject him.
any way ... as you said earlier .... hope this gives you a little more insight into where I am coming from.
twin
More projections.
I could say the same about you, twin. But what does it add to the conversation?
I do NOT believe that the belief will be forced. AT ALL. There is NO FORCE involved. Love does not force it's own way, it allows things to progress and evolve naturally. Love does not NEED to FORCE itself, unlike the petty, tyrant god some believe in. "Believe in me or I'll torture you forever... rahhh!!!!"
Please. Give me a break. That's mankind's insecurities projecting onto God.
It is my personal belief that ALL of mankind will be overwhelmed by the true nature of the Creator. Which is pure, agape love. I understand that someone who happens to be atheist may find that remark somewhat arrogant, or I don't know... it's hard to put into words. I can imagine if I were an atheist, and here is someone saying "Well you don't believe now, but you will!" and shaking their head at that and laughing... . But it is MY personal belief about Life and God and mankind. I don't expect others to agree with it, I'm just sharing my view.
My way of seeing it, there will be a good deal of those who were atheists, who will recognize God... (they will recognize LOVE because they themselves were very loving, and dwelled in love.) While there will be many "christians" or other religious people who will NOT recognize God, though they think they know God so well. They will NOT recognize love, because they did NOT LOVE. They did not dwell in love. They set up residence in the house of judgement and condemnation.
"When Father... when did we do these things..." some will ask incredulously... thinking of their "non-belief". Yet they may be among the ones who were the closest TO God. Which makes perfect sense to me.
Yes, to ME.. labels mean very little. Again, it is the content of your character, and condition of your heart.
Another excellent post, sparrow! Wonderful witness.
Eternal salvation is, after all, eternal. Whether or not a person had it to begin with is something only God knows and we can guess at because the Word guides us. The faith of a child.... don't try to overthink it.
...snip...
How can an atheist remain an atheist (who by definition doesn't believe in the true God ... let alone any god) if as you say:
People don't reject God, they reject what they don't believe.
That doesn't make any sense when we're talking about the mindset of a atheist.
Such a person who rejects what they don't believe is then rejecting being a atheist.
...snip...
Only to you, apparently.
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. But it is MY personal belief about Life and God and mankind. I don't expect others to agree with it, I'm just sharing my view.
