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Great question! I am saying that the foundation of our salvation is Jesus Christ (as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13), the life that flows from that foundation is not our salvation, but our sanctification.
Apart from that foundation they are dead works, just as faith without works is dead aswell.
We were created to do those good works in Christ. Do they give us any leverage with God? No, because that would mean we have something to boast about before God. Even Abraham didn't have anything to boast about before God, he was saved by grace through faith just as much as we are. I'll just include the brother of Jesus, James, to satisfy wardendresden.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Romans 4 is a clear illustration that salvation by faith is nothing new.
Romans 4:1-8 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
And true faith will always result in holy works, in a life of sanctification by the Holy Spirit. But the two shouldn't be confused.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Strange that you would quote the letter of James by taking it out of context to prove your point. The previous verses reject that view:
James 2:16-20
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I think you may have failed to rightly divide the word of truth, but then that is a hallmark of fundamentalism.
And here is a song you need to place deep down in your heart before you even begin to worry about sheep and goats:
Last edited by Wardendresden; 06-04-2016 at 05:42 PM..
And your sin is seeing pass/fail (the cross) as the only reason Jesus came to live among us. He could have spared us three years of sharing His wisdom and just climbed up on the cross. But His emphasis was far more in sharing that wisdom (three years worth) than "saving" us (six hours on the cross). But you turn His whole ministry into a pass/fail test.
Was the Good Samaritan going to hell? He didn't believe in Jesus nor did he read the same Bible as Jews. I just want to know if he went to hell. Don't tell us you don't know. Fundamentalist preachers know everything.
The Good Samaritan is a parable. You realize that, right?
How about an actual real Samaritan? The woman at the well believed in Jesus. It's why he went out of his way to talk to her.
The Good Samaritan is a parable. You realize that, right?
How about an actual real Samaritan? The woman at the well believed in Jesus. It's why he went out of his way to talk to her.
He didn't reject her for her lifestyle did He? Or tell her she needed to believe?
The story of the woman at the well teaches us that God loves us in spite of our bankrupt lives and in spite of our sexuality. Women weren't spoken to--the OT saw them as property. Jesus didn't.
It also comes to us right after Jesus had to set down another Pharisee who didn't understand Scripture any more than you do. The story of Nicodemus was where Jesus criticized a bible-believer by saying:
"Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, zwe speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony." John 3:10b-11
If you have experienced the love of God in your life, there should be no room to criticize anyone, anywhere at anytime for any reason. That was the message of the woman at the well--and to you at your well.
With regard to the Good Samaritan, any parable Jesus tells is for our edification. He didn't mention "belief" because that wasn't at the core of His message about helping an injured man. He was teaching to help because someone was hurt--and not, like Paul, to heap burning coals on their head. But I suppose parables aren't about teaching YOU anything?
That song is one you need to learn to live as well, Vizio. Because for all the ink absorbed by the papyrus in writing the Bible--it doesn't come close to how much He loves us--so much, that it shouldn't surprise anyone if He forgave all.
It meant so much to me, that I once sang it before a congregation of 200---and I am absolutely tone deaf. But I guess this is the wisdom of a modern day man, the kind Snowball disparages for their wisdom.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 06-04-2016 at 05:46 PM..
It's a fair conclusion, Jeff. You've made hundreds of posts about gay men and their sex lives. Gay men are obviously of major interest to you.
I have no idea if you are gay or straight or bi. None are reasons to be ashamed. It's not a sin to be straight or LGBTQ.
Then drop it. Falsely accusing me of being gay has absolutely NO relevance to the discussion. I'm sick and tired of this immature pathetic accusation. If you are going to draw conclusions and make accusations based on ZERO evidence then you just show the world that no one should ever take your commentary seriously.
Falsely accusing me of being gay has absolutely NO relevance to the discussion.
Are you subject to delusions? Or do you have some sort of weird need to lie about your fellow posters? One more time...pay close attention....I've never once accused you of being gay. Ever. Never ever. I have noted your interest in homosexuality and gay men which is obvious to anyone who has read your hundreds of posts on the subject. I have no idea which sex you are attracted to. And, frankly, I don't care. You aren't that special and other people's sex lives don't interest me. What Jeffbase40 does with in his sex life is #528,352,452,532,517 on the list of things I care about. Why would I "accuse"* you of being gay when I don't care if you are gay or straight?
Make a note, because having to repeat myself because you cant remember that bit of information is really, really boring.
*Being gay is not a sin. There is no "accusing" a person of being gay. Just as there is no "accusing" a person of being straight. Make a note of that, too.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 06-04-2016 at 07:34 PM..
Are you subject to delusions? Or do you have some sort of weird need to lie about your fellow posters? One more time...pay close attention....I've never once accused you of being gay. I have no idea which sex you are attracted to. And, frankly, I don't care. You aren't that special and other people's sex lives don't interest me. What Jeffbase40 does with in his sex life is #528,352,452,532,517 on the list of things I care about.
Make a note, because having to repeat myself because you cant remember that bit of information is really, really boring.
Baloney, you keep suggesting it. Maybe you think it's cute, but I'm tired of it.
Baloney, you keep suggesting it. Maybe you think it's cute, but I'm tired of it.
I've no desire to make our hard-working, all-volunteer force of mods work even harder. You've been told how it is. Accept it and move on or find someone else if you need to bicker with your fellow posters.
I've no desire to make our hard-working, all-volunteer force of mods work even harder. You've been told how it is. Accept it and move on or find someone else if you need to bicker with your fellow posters.
Of course you have. You know you have. For someone who claims to be so tolerant it's amazing you'd use such an insult.
Strange that you would quote the letter of James by taking it out of context to prove your point. The previous verses reject that view:
James 2:16-20
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I think you may have failed to rightly divide the word of truth, but then that is a hallmark of fundamentalism.
And here is a song you need to place deep down in your heart before you even begin to worry about sheep and goats:
Ward, I really can barely stand to look at this thread - it bugs me that much, probably because one of my daughters is gay and so I really dislike the gay witch-hunts and hatred of gays. I think those who despise gays with a vengeance will find themselves in the judgement with the unbelievers. That's what I think. They claim they CARE so much, but deny they are filled with hatred. Yet they obviously are filled with HATRED. Too bad they don't turn some of the vengeance toward some serious injustices going on in our society.
Last edited by RainMusic; 06-04-2016 at 07:57 PM..
Reason: addition
Ward, I really can barely stand to look at this thread - it bugs me that much, probably because one of my daughters is gay and so I really dislike the gay witch-hunts and hatred of gays. I think those who despise gays with a vengeance will find themselves in the judgement with the unbelievers. That's what I think. They claim they CARE so much, but deny they are filled with hatred. Yet they obviously are filled with HATRED. Too bad they don't turn some of the vengeance toward some serious injustices going on in our society.
And the irony is that those claiming to be the tolerant ones are trying to insult Christians by accusing them of being closeted homosexuals. You can't mak this stuff up.
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