Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Let's look at that passage. Is it for everyone (universalism)?
2 Corinthians 5
The Ministry of Reconciliation
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. 16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
What do you think?
It says it right there, my friend. "...that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them ."
Your bible says that God was reconciling the WORLD, not counting their trespasses against them.
Now, you want to maintain that somehow God IS counting the sins of the world against them, so you have a contradiction on your hands. Which means either your doctrine is wrong, or the bible passage is wrong. Take your pick.
Quote:
Did you dismiss Jesus also?
Well, now that's a loaded question, isn't it? I'm guessing that what you're really asking is did I dismiss all the various doctrines about Jesus that some Christians think I need to believe so that God won't send me to eternal hell. Of course I did. When I was able to examine them in the light, their true character was revealed.
Hebrew 9:22
The law requires – that nearly everything be cleansed with blood; and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
But we are not under the Law of the Old Covenant, or that mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I don't think you can say "we" are not under that mindset. Obviously, quite a few people are. And not just a subset of Christians, unfortunately. There are a lot of people, Christian and non-Christian alike, who think that they cannot forgive unless/until they see someone suffer, until they get their pound of flesh. I think, however, that what they all come to realize once they see their desire for revenge carried out, is that it gives them no real satisfaction. It doesn't make up for whatever happened to them, it doesn't fix it or make them feel better. It just leaves them empty, and no more willing or able to forgive than they were before.
Yes, I can say "we are not under that mindset."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Jesus' redemptive work was to satisfy God's holiness, once for all. One Christian forgiving another requires no such action. You're being dramatic and purposely mis-characterizing the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Interesting that you said "one Christian forgiving another". So, Christians can forgive other Christians because they believe that vengeance against those other Christians was executed on Jesus in their stead. But, maybe it's not so easy to forgive non-Christians, jimmie? Some of you guys seem to really relish the idea that they will eventually be eternally punished.
The point is, jimmie, that some people have a mindset that desires others to be punished for their "sins". A belief in substitutionary atonement (the belief that God needed to see someone punished in order to be satisfied and forgive) fits right in with that mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
I should have known you would jump to that conclusion, since I so easily refuted your previous nonsense. No true follower of Christ is "relishing" the thought of others burning in Hell. We spend a lot of money & time sharing the gospel with unbelievers.
God's holiness requires payment for sin. A person can accept Christ's redemptive work as that payment (John 3:16) or they will pay themself (Luke 16:19-31). If we didn't care about others, we wouldn't share the gospel. *We're not all Westboro Baptist Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
You refuted something? When?
Yes, some of you spend lots of time and money telling people "believe or else". And then some of you also relish the idea that those who ignore all your hard work and sacrifice , will eventually be punished.
Like I said, a God who needed to see a person punished in order to forgive, (and who will need to see much of humanity punished eternally in order to be completely satisfied) fits right in with the vengeful mindset of some people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I said "some of you". If the shoe doesn't fit you, wonderful.
If God's "holiness" means what the substitutionary atonement and eternal torment and annihilation doctrines claim about it (that God's holiness demanded God see an innocent human be punished in order to be able to forgive those who aren't innocent, and that God's holiness requires that anyone who doesn't believe in the Christian doctrine of substitutionary atonement must be punished for eternity in order to be completely satisfied) you are correct: that makes no sense to me. It also shouldn't make sense to anyone who claims they believe the bible when it says that God IS love, and that love keeps no record of wrongs.
17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. See also Isaiah 53.
"keeps no record of wrongs" You are misquoting that scripture. It was written to Christians. However, from God's perspective, that applies to all believers, not all people. See John 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Oh boy. "God IS love" and "love keeps no record of wrongs" and "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them" are only true sometimes or aren't true at all . Hey, the bible is your inerrant "word of God". If you want to dismiss parts of it, you go right ahead. I just think it's funny that you types get so upset about non-Christians doing it, when you do it yourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
You are the one dismissing scripture. Read John 3:16-36. You are quoting scripture intended for believers and trying to apply it to everyone. No wonder your theology is screwed up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Let me address the bolded. Yes, Jesus died for all people. But, as you can see from John 3 and other passages, not all accept God's redemption. Many here reject it. Universalism is a lie. Scripture is overwhelming against that belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Sure, just keep pitting bible verses against each another, Jimmie. It highlights how self-contradictory your inerrant bible is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Is that the same Bible you were quoting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Yes, I was quoting the bible that you think is inerrant. You didn't know that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
But when that same scripture says something you don't like, you dismiss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
LOL.
Remember this, from a few minutes ago?:
Pot, kettle.
But to answer you question, YES! Hallelujah, yes! After 40+ years of being enslaved to the belief that the bible was the inerrant word of God, I was freed! I dismiss the heck out of all the self-contradictory messages contained within it's pages. I'm no longer shackled to the idea that the mythology is literally true.
All the descriptions within it that describe a God who is supposedly love, being wrathful, hateful, vengeful, jealous, capricious, vindictive, punishing, small-minded, full of murderous intent, and worse than ALL of the worst of evil tyrannical human despots all tied up into one cosmically awful package... YES - I tossed it all!
Buh-bye, to the soul-sucking darkness that is bible inerrancy.
It says it right there, my friend. "...that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them ."
Your bible says that God was reconciling the WORLD, not counting their trespasses against them.
Now, you want to maintain that somehow God IS counting the sins of the world against them, so you have a contradiction on your hands. Which means either your doctrine is wrong, or the bible passage is wrong. Take your pick.
Well, now that's a loaded question, isn't it? I'm guessing that what you're really asking is did I dismiss all the various doctrines about Jesus that some Christians think I need to believe so that God won't send me to eternal hell. Of course I did. When I was able to examine them in the light, their true character was revealed.
But what about the bolded parts? Do they indicate that everyone accepts Christ's redemption? John 3:16 says the same thing, but then later in the chapter indicates not all will accept. Jesus Himself said many will choose the "wide road". So, you find that contradictory?
Yes, I was asking if you were a Christian. What is it about Jesus that offends you?
Hebrew 9:22
The law requires – that nearly everything be cleansed with blood; and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
But we are not under the Law of the Old Covenant, or that mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
But Jesus was under the Law, and He fulfilled the Law.
When he laid-down his own life, he was walking in the Spirit of his father, not the letter of the law.
Quote:
Look. Jesus Himself stated that His blood needed to be shed for the forgiveness of sins.
If you choose not to believe Jesus, that's on you.
His blood was shed in order to establish the New Covenant, not to reinforce the Old.
You cannot pour new-wine into old-wine skins, no matter how hard you try, Mike.
But what about the bolded parts? Do they indicate that everyone accepts Christ's redemption? John 3:16 says the same thing, but then later in the chapter indicates not all will accept. Jesus Himself said many will choose the "wide road". So, you find that contradictory?
Jimmie, you aren't paying attention. Do you think the things you bolded somehow make the part that says that "God was reconciling the WORLD, not counting their trespasses against them" not say what it says? Do you think the bolded parts mean God changed her mind and decided, "What?!? They don't believe that I'm not holding their sins against 'em?! I'll show them! I AM going to hold their sins against them after all! Off with their heads and to hell with them all!"?
Quote:
Yes, I was asking if you were a Christian. What is it about Jesus that offends you
No, I am not a Christian. I am not offended by Jesus. I DO find some of the religious doctrines that have been built up around Jesus to be harmful and/or disturbing, at best. Before you ask: biblical inerrancy and all that comes with it, substitutionary atonement, the T, U and L of TULIP in any of the various forms they take in different denominations, and eternal torment or annihilation. Add on to that the anti-gay sentiment that seems to go hand-in-hand with those doctrines, and the overall fixation on sin and judging others. That's more than enough.
Jesus' redemptive work was to satisfy God's holiness, once for all. One Christian forgiving another requires no such action. You're being dramatic and purposely mis-characterizing the situation.
Jimmie, you are looking under the wrong category.
Because his redemptive work came through that of love.
And, yes, it does require action.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm guessing that what you're really asking is did I dismiss all the various doctrines about Jesus that some Christians think I need to believe so that God won't send me to eternal hell. Of course I did. When I was able to examine them in the light, their true character was revealed.
