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Oooooohhhhhh Armageddon again...so much fear for those perfected in love.
“If we want to follow the Bible, that would sure be a good place to start, wouldn’t it?” Daubenmire said. “Rather than worrying so much about the immorality of a sinful man, what about the biblical principle that when a woman rules over a man … it’s a sign of judgment of the Lord?”
I guess I don't see Phoebe as a "deaconess" as 1 Tim 3 describes it. For one, 1 Tim 3 describes the deacons as having wives. Since the early church wasn't progressive to the point where it ordained lesbians, that would mean that she was not qualified to be one.
She was a servant of the church. She was probably very valued, but she was not a pastor or a teacher.
Correct in the sense of the word Diakonos in Greek.
Today's Deacons are not in the same position. It became a Title rather than a description and in fact in many churches they have authority over the Pastor(s) which is not based on the use of the word in Scripture, so no real relation to the Greek word diakonos, just a borrowing of the transliteration.
Phoebe served in some way, but not in a position where she taught or had any impact on teaching within the Church. The fact that both Olderman/Elder/Bishop/ Pastor even diakonos/deacon, all are referred to as having a wife, indicates none were women.
All descriptions of those who teach is of men just as the 12 Apostles were men. Nothing to do with capability or equality at all, just the way God said to do it. Those who hate God's word will always try to make it about equality and ... it isn't. It has to do with what God wishes.
Well, always possible, but the point remains that the ultimate destination of the "reprobate" is STILL being debated in the church, but there is only ONE answer consistent with Grace, and that is correction rather than punishment.
There are two possibilities with Grave, life or death.One group believes none will be rejected and another believes some will be based on their own decisions and actions. Jesus own words seem to indicate the later. The very 1st example is Adam and ... from dust you are and to duct YOU will return. There was no Adam before his creation and no Adam after he returned to dust.
I don't ignore God's "holiness," I just don't see it the way you do..... lessee where did I post that? brb
So, "Holy" means more like "dedicated" if you can see the difference.
BTW, if I am "disingenuous," everyone who realizes that there is controversy, but presents his version of the Gospel is also. Jimmyj, do you believe what you teach to have been revealed by Jesus?
Some cannot handle conflict and others create conflict. Disagreement where people are willing to reason is fine, where they just denigrate and insult it becomes a waste of time.
I guess I don't see Phoebe as a "deaconess" as 1 Tim 3 describes it. For one, 1 Tim 3 describes the deacons as having wives. Since the early church wasn't progressive to the point where it ordained lesbians, that would mean that she was not qualified to be one.
She was a servant of the church. She was probably very valued, but she was not a pastor or a teacher.
And my point is that you are making generic descriptions of what in that society would be the majority of office holders PRESCRIPTIVE instead of DESCRIPTIVE as in the KIND of qualities and behavior expected.... JUST as if you had a fundamentalist mindset instead of one guided by the spirit of liberty in Christ. Now why would that be?
Phoebe was described as the same kind of office holder you talk about and the same gender appropriate conditions would apply.
Really??? A man is different than a woman, so how do we apply your statement?
Ok as somebody who was brought up going to church but since have made a decision to explore other ways of being, this kind of thinking greatly confuses me.
Could somebody please explain to me how a woman is different from a man other than some biological differences? How does that affect her personhood? Ability to lead? Anything really?
Also how do we address gender fluid individuals and instances of transgenderism and/or intersexed people who's chromosomes and genitalia don't match conventional norms?
Correct in the sense of the word Diakonos in Greek.
Today's Deacons are not in the same position. It became a Title rather than a description and in fact in many churches they have authority over the Pastor(s) which is not based on the use of the word in Scripture, so no real relation to the Greek word diakonos, just a borrowing of the transliteration.
Phoebe served in some way, but not in a position where she taught or had any impact on teaching within the Church. The fact that both Olderman/Elder/Bishop/ Pastor even diakonos/deacon, all are referred to as having a wife, indicates none were women.
All descriptions of those who teach is of men just as the 12 Apostles were men. Nothing to do with capability or equality at all, just the way God said to do it. Those who hate God's word will always try to make it about equality and ... it isn't. It has to do with what God wishes.
So Jimmy Carter HATES God's words? There is a thread on picking a Christian or Atheist that one admires. I choose Jimmy Carter for his humanitarian efforts and having the stones to stand up when he saw something he couldn't agree with. BTW he remains a devote Christian. What is with you and JimmieJ projecting hate onto other people?
Carter states how the subjugation of women was not always a part of Christianity.
The carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place - and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence - than eternal truths I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn't until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.
Friberg Greek Lexicon: 6268 dia,konoj, ou, o` and h` (1) generally of a person who renders helpful service servant, helper (MT 20.26; possibly RO 16.1); (2) as an official in the church; deacon, both masculine (1T 3.8) and feminine (probably RO 16.1); (3) as a government official minister, agent (RO 13.4); (4) as one who serves a high official attendant, servant (MT 22.13)
UBS GReek Lexicon: 1475 dia,konoj , ou m and f servant; helper, minister; deacon; deaconess (Ro 16.1); a=ra Cristo.j a`marti,aj dÅ Does Christ serve the interests of sin? (Ga 2.17)
LOUW-NIda GReek Lexicon: 35.20 qera,pwn, ontoj m ; u`phre,thj, ou m ; dia,konoj, ou m and f: (derivatives of qerapeu,w, u`phrete,w, and diakone,w 'to serve,' 35.19) a person who renders service - 'servant.' qera,pwn: Mwu?sh/j me.n pisto.j evn o[lw| tw|/ oi;kw| auvtou/ w`j qera,pwn 'Moses was faithful in God's whole house as a servant' He 3.5. u`phre,thj: eivj tou/to ga.r w;fqhn soi, proceiri,sasqai, se u`phre,thn 'I have appeared to you to appoint you as (my) servant' Ac 26.16. In the NT u`phre,thj is employed to refer to many diverse types of servants, such as attendants to a king, officers of the Sanhedrin, attendants of magistrates, and, especially in the Gospel of John, Jewish Temple guards. dia,konoj: avllV o]j eva.n qe,lh| evn u`mi/n me,gaj gene,sqai e;stai u`mw/n dia,konoj 'if anyone of you wants to be great, he must be the servant of the rest' Mt 20.26.
In rendering qera,pwn, u`phre,thj, and dia,konoj in the sense of 'servant,' it is important to avoid a term which would be too specific, for example, 'one who serves meals' or 'one who works around the house.' It may, in fact, be necessary to use an expression which means essentially 'helper.'
It is a helper, servant, minister (in a secular sense) and does not convey the idea of teaching anything religious. In fact Phoebe could have been the church secretary. The English word "Deacon" is a title that does not actually match the Greek very closely these days.
Oh and masculine or Feminine word gender does not impact the physical gender of the subject. Jesus is described using feminine Greek words and he is not a she.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I guess I don't see Phoebe as a "deaconess" as 1 Tim 3 describes it. For one, 1 Tim 3 describes the deacons as having wives. Since the early church wasn't progressive to the point where it ordained lesbians, that would mean that she was not qualified to be one.
She was a servant of the church. She was probably very valued, but she was not a pastor or a teacher.
as someone else said .... game, set and match.
However, knowing the fault finders they would careless what answer is given as long as if it didn't confirm to their narcissistic god of thineself.
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