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Tell me when you have some way of giving me an objective answer of what morality is, and what is immoral.
Even the aforementioned love is a subjective standard. To this point all you have is your opinion, and your opinion is worth no more than mine, or anyone else's.
The objective answer is that knowledge of what is right and wrong comes from the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit dwelling in imperfect people. And then, here's the catch, we all have to figure out what the Spirit is telling us at any given time in any given situation. So we rely on discussion, debate, prayer, study....
That's the way it has always been. What would you have done with Paul if you were alive in those days?Seriously, I'd like to know. He would have appeared to be a complete heretic, or maybe crazy. This guy, former murderer, suddenly has a bizarre experience, and now claims that "God" is telling him all these things. Not from the Jesus that everyone knew, because Paul never knew that Jesus. Paul didn't apparently quote the historical Jesus, but relied solely on his own personal experience of Spirit and communicated that to others and said that was Jesus also.
Paul was making a claim that his inner experience was as good as scripture...better, even. Yet, so many things he taught were opposed to scripture they had at that time, so you couldn't really measure his message against scripture to tell if it was true. That's what we are doing here! We're going beyond Paul by doing what Paul did. As we are supposed to. There's every indication in Paul's letters that revelation was expected to continue.
What would you have done with Paul the mystic, using your current logic? Would you have have demanded his "objective standard" of scripture? I'm gonna bet you would have stayed a Jew.*
*Edit: By that I am not trying to be insulting, but trying to show how the current way of thinking prevents moving beyond the status quo.
Jesus said it fulfills the Law. If we are to define morality according to God's Law, sure. And we know that God doesn't approve of homosexuality. If we love God, we will not approve of it. But that's the thing, isn't it? Folks only want the "love thy neighbor" part when it's convenient, and they forget the "Love God" part.
So again, I challenge anyone to tell me their source for morality, other than their opinions. How do we know something is moral or immoral, if not for an objective source (like God) telling us?
The problem you refuse to face is that we DON'T know that "God doesn't approve of homosexuality." We know that there has been 3,000 plus years of interpretation of some references that say so, but interpretation has been wrong in other areas, for example, the Jewish religion has a long practice of strict separation of dairy and meat products based on an interpretation that God doesn't approve of anything that could possibly be any element of "seethe a kid in its mother's milk." Why can't you look at the idea that 3,000 years of prejudice on homosexuality is based on MISinterpretation of scripture?
Then take a look at what Jesus meant when He said, "love fulfills the Law." After the Pharisees complained that His disciples were harvesting grain on the Sabbath, Jesus made it clear that He was not interested in the LETTER of the Law, but its intent. In the same way love (agape) fulfills the intent of the Law, which is living in community with God and man.
Jesus said it fulfills the Law. If we are to define morality according to God's Law, sure. And we know that God doesn't approve of homosexuality. If we love God, we will not approve of it. But that's the thing, isn't it? Folks only want the "love thy neighbor" part when it's convenient, and they forget the "Love God" part.
So again, I challenge anyone to tell me their source for morality, other than their opinions. How do we know something is moral or immoral, if not for an objective source (like God) telling us?
Just to be clear . . .when you speak of going to an objective source (like God) for our morality ...is this the same God who murdered or gave the command to murder all of the first born children in Egypt? the babies and children in the destruction of the world in Noah's time or in Sodom and Gomorrah? Is this the God we're looking to for our morals or do you have another God in mind? If we're to choose between looking to the God of the Old Testament as our moral compass or that of the average human being then I think I would more put my trust in the latter.
without consequences and wrath, love can't be known.
No one is suggesting that God is not love. Of course he is. But if you believe that God is only love, your god is too small.
No, you believe that the consequence of failure to live love for God and man MUST be wrath, when they are just consequences, indicators that we have "blown it." Ways to learn (if we pay attention). That God loves even when we goof is much "bigger." YOUR God is too small.
No one in scripture ever felt the need to come to Jesus bringing their sexual proclivities in supplication , believing His greatest possible blessing to them to be approval of sexual practices .
Not one instance of that ever happening in God's Word .
The present day generation's obsession with their sexual proclivities in the spiritual realm is quite telling in their continual focus being on themselves and their lives and Jesus's implied obligation to serve them in the flesh .
How foreign and removed from the way everyone approached Jesus in the testimonial Word of God .
" Hear my prayer O Lord ,give ear to my supplications , in thy faithfulness answer me and
in Thy righteousness ." (Psalm 143:1)
Last edited by unfailing presence; 08-27-2019 at 08:06 AM..
Parents need to be aware that the homosexual lobby intends to indoctrinate their children—yes, indoctrinate. The homosexual lobby is aggressively trying to convince children that homosexual behavior should be accepted and embraced. They clearly want homosexuality to be introduced before these children are old enough to understand the nature of human intimacy. They have no qualms about inviting children to experiment with sex and with homosexual sex in particular. This is not about education or being nice, inclusive, and tolerant.
Parents need to know and understand what is being taught in schools, particularly be wary of assemblies, programs, and courses with labels like “anti-bully” or “diversity”. This war is real. Our values, our religion, and the future of our children are being fought over every day.
Parents need to be aware that the homosexual lobby intends to indoctrinate their children—yes, indoctrinate. The homosexual lobby is aggressively trying to convince children that homosexual behavior should be accepted and embraced. They clearly want homosexuality to be introduced before these children are old enough to understand the nature of human intimacy. They have no qualms about inviting children to experiment with sex and with homosexual sex in particular. This is not about education or being nice, inclusive, and tolerant.
Parents need to know and understand what is being taught in schools, particularly be wary of assemblies, programs, and courses with labels like “anti-bully” or “diversity”. This war is real. Our values, our religion, and the future of our children are being fought over every day.
OH NOES! Kids are being indoctrinated into being.... TOLERANT! OH... MY... GOD.... THE HORROR!!!!
I was reflecting on the same thing, when BaptistFundie's prejudices came to the surface.
I really feel sorry for you, as well. I'm not really sure what happened to turn you into the hateful being that you portray on here. I really am sorry. I pray you find peace.
And, the resounding cheers by a congregation of blatant empty-heads. Disgraceful behavior! However, it occurred to me that BF, Jeff, Finn and the Choir Loft guy would probably agree with the lyrics to that song and may therefore also partake in the cheering. Am I mistaken, BF, Jeff, Finn and the Choir Loft guy? Do the lyrics the little guy is singing speak the truth according to your biblical perspective on the issue? Will there be 'homos' in heaven?
On what planet would you possibly think that any Christian on this board would cheer that garbage? To even suggest that is hateful bigotry.
Seriously. I'm sorry that you are that way. I really am.
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