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No, BF, I am telling you what you believe and accept is barbaric but you seem oblivious to it. I have no idea whether or not you are an ignorant barbarian. I do have my suspicions, though.
This short video reminded me of you...
They Want Me to Pick Between Jesus and the Bible (5 min.)
After having viewed the above videos submitted by Iwasmadenew in Post 7921, particularly the second one, It Depends What You mean by being "Gay"', where the guy speaks to gay supporters 'attempting to reinterpret the Bible' I felt it high time to present the below video. I previously presented it way back and it discusses what is probably the most (in)famous 'clobber text' of the Bible toward homosexuality ...Leviticus 18:22.
Now, I hope that I'm not at odds with C/D protocol here by presenting the below which was from another Christian Forum years ago that i participated in. I had presented the said video and I wanted to know the thoughts of a Jewish scholar regarding the video's accuracy. The video is only just over 8 minutes in length. Here it is, plus my online conversation (27 March 2014) with the 'Torah' scholar, cnorman:
[KCKID (RomulusXXV) replying to post 7 by cnorman18]
That was most interesting, cnorman. Since you appear to be quite knowledgeable of the Torah, I wonder if you would spend 8:28 of your time and view the below video entitled The Truth About Leviticus & Homosexuality ...?
Since I'm a defender on this forum of those that appear to be 'born' homosexual but are nevertheless condemned by many present-day Christians, it's essential to me that I speak as accurately as I'm able whenever I debate the 'clobber' passages of Leviticus (and other allegedly anti-gay scriptures) with others.
Would you say that the 'explanations' of the Leviticus 'clobber' passages as given in the video to be at least feasible based on what you know?
[Response from cnorman) I watched the video, and it's quite good. A trifle oversimplified when it comes to discussing other religions of the Bronze Age -- they weren't ALL obsessed with fertility rites and so on, and there were other contexts for "gay sex" as well, e.g. homosexual anal rape as a formal humiliation in war or feud -- but the analysis of the language of the Hebrew Bible is right on the money.
As I said, the Bible does not seem to be "aware," so to speak, of homosexuality as a sexual orientation; the reason the ACT is the point of reference is that it never occurred to the writers that anyone would do this because they WANTED to, or that one could be attracted to the same sex and want to live in a gay relationship.
Whatever. The fact is, we know things now that we didn't then, and the world is different. How many rules can one find in the Hebrew Bible that are no longer kept, or even understood in today's world? I eat shellfish, and often; I eat pork, I wear mixed fabrics, and when I had a garden I planted different crops together because they enriched the soil and kept the pests off each other. Anybody wearing a cotton/polyester shirt with clams or shrimp on his breath who points to these so-called "Clobber Passages" is either (a) ignorant or (b) a flaming hypocrite. I've got no patience for people who want to tell me that they "chose" to be straight and that gays can "choose" to change. That's nonsense.
Proof? Okay. CHOOSE TO BE GAY. Right now. You don't have to DO anything about it, mind; just CHOOSE to feel attracted to the other sex.
Can't be done.
My converting rabbi used to say, "If you see something in Torah that you KNOW to be wrong, there are two and only two alternatives. Either you are not reading the Torah properly -- or the Torah is wrong."
Notice that the third alternative, the one most commonly chosen by fundamentalists -- that is, "Discard your own rationality and moral sense in favor of religious dogmatism dictated by a literal reading" -- is not available to us. We are NOT allowed to stop thinking and just do as we're told. Not EVER. The Bible doesn't interpret itself, and even if it did, OUR MINDS STILL WORK. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.
As I've said elsewhere; a literal reading disfigures and denigrates the Bible.
After having viewed the above videos submitted by Iwasmadenew in Post 7921, particularly the second one, It Depends What You mean by being "Gay"', where the guy speaks to gay supporters 'attempting to reinterpret the Bible' I felt it high time to present the below video. I previously presented it way back and it discusses what is probably the most (in)famous 'clobber text' of the Bible toward homosexuality ...Leviticus 18:22.
Now, I hope that I'm not at odds with C/D protocol here by presenting the below which was from another Christian Forum years ago that i participated in. I had presented the said video and I wanted to know the thoughts of a Jewish scholar regarding the video's accuracy. The video is only just over 8 minutes in length. Here it is, plus my online conversation (27 March 2014) with the 'Torah' scholar, cnorman:
[KCKID (RomulusXXV) replying to post 7 by cnorman18]
That was most interesting, cnorman. Since you appear to be quite knowledgeable of the Torah, I wonder if you would spend 8:28 of your time and view the below video entitled The Truth About Leviticus & Homosexuality ...?
Since I'm a defender on this forum of those that appear to be 'born' homosexual but are nevertheless condemned by many present-day Christians, it's essential to me that I speak as accurately as I'm able whenever I debate the 'clobber' passages of Leviticus (and other allegedly anti-gay scriptures) with others.
Would you say that the 'explanations' of the Leviticus 'clobber' passages as given in the video to be at least feasible based on what you know?
[Response from cnorman) I watched the video, and it's quite good. A trifle oversimplified when it comes to discussing other religions of the Bronze Age -- they weren't ALL obsessed with fertility rites and so on, and there were other contexts for "gay sex" as well, e.g. homosexual anal rape as a formal humiliation in war or feud -- but the analysis of the language of the Hebrew Bible is right on the money.
As I said, the Bible does not seem to be "aware," so to speak, of homosexuality as a sexual orientation; the reason the ACT is the point of reference is that it never occurred to the writers that anyone would do this because they WANTED to, or that one could be attracted to the same sex and want to live in a gay relationship.
Whatever. The fact is, we know things now that we didn't then, and the world is different. How many rules can one find in the Hebrew Bible that are no longer kept, or even understood in today's world? I eat shellfish, and often; I eat pork, I wear mixed fabrics, and when I had a garden I planted different crops together because they enriched the soil and kept the pests off each other. Anybody wearing a cotton/polyester shirt with clams or shrimp on his breath who points to these so-called "Clobber Passages" is either (a) ignorant or (b) a flaming hypocrite. I've got no patience for people who want to tell me that they "chose" to be straight and that gays can "choose" to change. That's nonsense.
Proof? Okay. CHOOSE TO BE GAY. Right now. You don't have to DO anything about it, mind; just CHOOSE to feel attracted to the other sex.
Can't be done.
My converting rabbi used to say, "If you see something in Torah that you KNOW to be wrong, there are two and only two alternatives. Either you are not reading the Torah properly -- or the Torah is wrong."
Notice that the third alternative, the one most commonly chosen by fundamentalists -- that is, "Discard your own rationality and moral sense in favor of religious dogmatism dictated by a literal reading" -- is not available to us. We are NOT allowed to stop thinking and just do as we're told. Not EVER. The Bible doesn't interpret itself, and even if it did, OUR MINDS STILL WORK. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.
As I've said elsewhere; a literal reading disfigures and denigrates the Bible.
Those people are all over the place though, however there is a need for social activism to change systems which have anti-social, exclusive tendencies in them
It is the pendulum swinging to correct the Inequality but as with everything people jump onto band-wagons and support the movement/person losing sight of the reason for the change, for what purpose
The reason is not to set up the organisation for itself, the organisation is needed to bring about the change where individuals have a right to be who they are within the bounds of their society, family, etc which nowadays is more diverse, and with that diversity there needs to be more understanding, flexibility, etc
It seem to me that this social justice sentiment is more about demonizing Christians than defending the LGBTQ community. A Christian family has the right to part ways with a gay son or daughter just as wives have the right to part ways with their husbands when relationships are untenable. Couples in such unhappy situations would tough it out till their kids are in college. Where does the blame lie? Who is in the wrong or being cruel to the other? It just isn't intelligent to make Christian families wrong or attack Christianity in general over their perception of homosexuality as a sin. That would be just as unfair to condemn a Christian woman as cruel and heartless for casting out her husband for coming out as a homosexual. Shoul she be viewed as a bigot?
It seem to me that this social justice sentiment is more about demonizing Christians than defending the LGBTQ community. A Christian family has the right to part ways with a gay son or daughter just as wives have the right to part ways with their husbands when relationships are untenable. Couples in such unhappy situations would tough it out till their kids are in college. Where does the blame lie? Who is in the wrong or being cruel to the other? It just isn't intelligent to make Christian families wrong or attack Christianity in general over their perception of homosexuality as a sin. That would be just as unfair to condemn a Christian woman as cruel and heartless for casting out her husband for coming out as a homosexual. Shoul she be viewed as a bigot?
This reflects the black-and-white thinking that is at the root of the problem, though. Everything does not boil down to a matter of right or wrong or blaming someone or declaring this and that person as a "sin". The overarching message of Christianity, the only thing that matters, is love one another, and it's a lot easier to say than to do.
I read a story many years ago about a Mormon woman who discovered her husband was gay. He tried to change himself, which of course he couldn't, and eventually he started slipping out again to the gay bars to meet men. She eventually had to come to the decision to divorce him, and she was heartbroken, especially because in the LDS church, you are married for eternity.
A few years later, she learned that her ex-husband had AIDS. This was in the early 90s, when treatments for AIDS were not yet were they are today. He was dying. She took him back into her home and cared for him in his last days. That's love.
I've known several women who were married to men who turned out to be gay. Most of the time, the men were trying to hide it from themselves as well as others until they just couldn't anymore. In one case, the man just didn't want his family to know because he knew they would reject him, so he married my classmate as a beard. In almost all the cases, the couple remained friends, and sometimes because they were jointly parents, after they parted. They still loved each other, but differently.
There's no black-and-white here, and there are no easy, one-size-fits-all solutions.
If one finds out that a child or another loved one is gay and finds it hard to accept because of a belief that something is chipped in stone that turns out not to be that way, the answer is to keep loving and to turn inward to search and see within one's self what the conflict may be. There's a tradition that says "the battle is always the self with the Self", and there's a lot of truth in that. In Christianity, the same thing is expressed with the log-in-one's-own-eye illustration. If, say, your child comes out as something other than what you expected, rather than reject the child or try to change him, ask yourself what it is that causes you pain about this. Is it a belief you've held as an unwavering truth that upon examination might turn out to not be true? Is there fear involved? Fear of what others might think of you and your family? Fear of being cast out socially? Those are the internal conversations one must have with one's self--and with God, for those who pray--when hit with an external blow about which one can do nothing but choose to look inward. Or not.
I read a story many years ago about a Mormon woman who discovered her husband was gay. He tried to change himself, which of course he couldn't, and eventually he started slipping out again to the gay bars to meet men. She eventually had to come to the decision to divorce him, and she was heartbroken, especially because in the LDS church, you are married for eternity.
A few years later, she learned that her ex-husband had AIDS. This was in the early 90s, when treatments for AIDS were not yet were they are today. He was dying. She took him back into her home and cared for him in his last days. That's love.
Oh, yeah. That was "Goodbye, I love you" by Carol Lynn Pearson. Good book. Today, she is kind of an unofficial spokesperson for acceptance of gay people by their Latter Day Saint families. Kind of a hero of mine.
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Wow. A real sense of purpose.
