Church History / Apostolic Succession (sin, Christ, Bible, Kingdom)
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Actually, MysticPhD altered what you posted. You wrote ''I agree fully that Peter was was the individual to whom Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Mystic changed what you wrote to ''I agree fully that Jesus Christ was the individual to whom "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." ''
Or am I missing something?
When I first read Katzpurs post I think it was worded as mystic posted, and now its has changed.....
Actually, MysticPhD altered what you posted. You wrote ''I agree fully that Peter was was the individual to whom Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Mystic changed what you wrote to ''I agree fully that Jesus Christ was the individual to whom "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." ''
Or am I missing something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I quoted EXACTLY what she posted. She made the mistake, Michael that is why she posted the embarrassment smiley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2
When I first read Katzpurs post I think it was worded as mystic posted, and now its has changed.....
I think katzpur altered her post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
No, you did not. Simply reread my post and compare what you said with what she said. Both quotes are side by side.
Note to Michael and Meerkat: I goofed. Once again, I failed to proofread my post. Happens all the time. You'd think I'd learn. Anyway, here's my response to Mystic when I realized what I'd written. To clarify, I believe that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter, but I believe we must answer solely to God and not to another human being.
Note to Michael and Meerkat: I goofed. Once again, I failed to proofread my post. Happens all the time. You'd think I'd learn. Anyway, here's my response to Mystic.
Hey Katzpur, you are not alone ...lol, we all do it, happens to me all the time .... people respond before we proofread and edit our posts
Actually, you wouldn't have agreed with me if I had posted what I intended to post, Mystic. But that's okay, I know where you're coming from and I agree with the essence of your post -- that we are each to come to know how to love and God loves and that we don't need an intermediary to make this possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I suspected that but took advantage of it anyway, Katz! We DO have an intermediary and He DOES abide with us in our consciousness. I have met Him. Too bad so few seek His guidance or listen to Him when He tries to point them to the Truth that God has "written in our hearts." I have noticed that you DO listen to what is in our hearts, Katz.
This corroborates the fact that I took advantage of her mistake for my own purposes, but it was her mistake, Michael.
I'm not capable of figuring everything out myself or of following Christ on my own. I need something bigger than and outside myself.
I need the Sacramental graces that can only be received within the bounds of the Church Christ established. It's the only sure means of salvation.
Where else can I consume the Body of Christ, without which I would have no life in me?
If I were to reject the Church, I would be rejecting Christ who gave Himself for me. How could I do that?
I'm a Catholic because it's where Christ is. Whenever I start to doubt, every time I go to mass I'm reminded all over again.
Maybe you don't need the Church, but I do. I know for a fact I'd end up in hell without the Church. Heaven forbid, I may even end up in hell with the Church (Lord have mercy, please don't let it be so).
I know you don't believe in hell, but I do because sometimes I can see myself choosing it.
Maybe it makes me weaker or less capable, but I don't care. It's where Christ is, and Christ is what I really want.
Brother you are so tied up in your tradition you cannot see that all you need is Christ. I know you cannot see this mike but what you just explained about you and your church tells me you are not free but in bondage.
I really don't care what church anyone belongs to mike, anyone seeking God will find him regardless of church membership.
I have never said I do not believe in hell mike, that is simply what you guys say because I do not believe in the hell you believe in.
I agree fully that Peter was was the individual to whom Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven." It is what happened after Peter's death that I contest. I see nothing in the Bible to indicate that the Bishop of Rome should have authority over any other bishop. Now, Peter was most assuredly an Apostle, which would have jurisdiction over his subordinates who were bishops. The Bible does not, however, state that Peter ever went to Rome mention Peter as ever going to Rome, and there is no early Christian record of this being the case. There are actually no 1st century A.D. historical accounts that mention the apostle Peter being Bishop of Rome.
The Catholic theologian and Jesuit priest, Francis A. Sullivan wrote in his book, "From Apostles to Bishops," that there is no evidence that any bishop ruled over Rome in the first century and that the Church in Rome was more likely led by a body of presbyters until sometime in the second century. He believes there is a wide consensus among scholars (even Catholic ones) that this was the case.
That may be the case, but as there was no separate Eastern Orthodox Church until 1054 A.D., it stands to reason that they would be in agreement with Roman Catholicism on this issue.
Again, what gave Paul the authority to ordain Linus when he (Paul) himself would have come before Linus in the line of succession to the office of Pope. And that brings me to one more very important point. I agree that the Apostles had the authority to appoint successors, and that they did so. This is proof that Jesus intended that Apostles continue to be the governing body of His Church and that Peter's successor should be chosen from among them rather than from among the myriad of bishops over congregations large and small.
Maybe, but the fact that he was a bishop proves nothing. The Pope (if there was ever such an individual) would have been selected from among the Apostles, who were over the entire Church and not just over a single denomination.
One last thought: Why would God have given His Revelation to the Apostle John (who was still alive when Peter died) instead of to Pope Linus. Seems to me that God was saying something there, and that was that a man would have been called to be an Apostle in order to be in the line of succession for leadership of the Church. Why would God have bypassed the Pope and given this revelation to someone else had that someone else not held the authority which entitled Him to receive revelation on behalf of the Church?
nice post , to soon to rep.
Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that if Peter went to Rome it would have had to have been at an early date because when Paul went to Rome there were already Christians there
How do you explain that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Copts, and Armenians all hold to Apostolic succession?
The "god" of this world has blinded their thinking......same for the "virgin" Mary program......
But it's the RCC dreaming stuff up...
Matthew 19:28English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
May want to stop drinking the Kool Aid and see what the book says........
For me, the proof is as simple as "the Catholic Church dogmatically says so"; but I get the feeling that won't work for you
Just like everyone's favorite gnostic waxing on about this "experience" with the spirit that catfished him, your believing an organization simply because it claims it's the one really isn't proof.
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Anyway, here's 
We DO have an intermediary and He DOES abide with us in our consciousness. I have met Him.
Too bad so few seek His guidance or listen to Him when He tries to point them to the Truth that God has "written in our hearts." I have noticed that you DO listen to what is in our hearts, Katz.
, to soon to rep.
