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This ongoing discord between a Catholic fundamentalist and a Baptist Fundamentalist reveals the utter folly of believing in the apostolic succession of ANY kind.
You realize I'm not actually a fundie, right? Nor would Mike be a "fundie".
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We are too fallible and flawed as humans ever to possess the kind of authority such nonsense purports. We ALL have the Comforter within us and we need to learn to listen and trust what He guides us to in our hearts because that is where God has written His Truth with agape love. We just need to be in the states of mind associated with agape love to see and understand Him. To refresh your minds, here is what Jesus showed us those states of mind are:
Is that why you believe the crazy message you say some spirit gave you?
But I just showed you that Scripture does support it...
Peter is always listed first:
Matthew 10:2 / Mark 3:16 / Luke 6:14
Peter speaks/answers for the rest of the Apostles:
Matthew 15:15 / Matthew 16:16 / Matthew 19:27 / Luke 12:41 / John 6:68
Jesus singles Peter out:
Matthew 26:40 / Luke 22:31
Only Peter, James, and John were with Jesus on special occasions such as the raising of Jairus' daughter, the Transfiguration, and the Agony in the Garden:
Mark 5:37 / Luke 8:51; Matthew 17:1 / Mark 9:1 / Luke 9:28; Matthew 26:37 / Mark 14:33
Jesus uniquely favors Peter:
Luke 5:3 / Matthew 14:28-31 / Matthew 17:24-27
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
And we do see Peter being corrected publicly by Paul.
What does Paul correcting Peter prove to you?
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Your history? Yes.
I'm not a historian, so there is no such thing as "my history". All I can do is read other historians. Some of the historians are Catholic, some are Protestant, some are not religious. Regardless of affiliation, they overwhelmingly agree that the early Church had bishops, and that Timothy was the first bishop of Ephesus.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I understand that. But we don't use a biased view history to correct Scripture.
But I just showed you that Scripture does support it...
Peter is always listed first:
Matthew 10:2 / Mark 3:16 / Luke 6:14
Peter speaks/answers for the rest of the Apostles:
Matthew 15:15 / Matthew 16:16 / Matthew 19:27 / Luke 12:41 / John 6:68
Jesus singles Peter out:
Matthew 26:40 / Luke 22:31
Only Peter, James, and John were with Jesus on special occasions such as the raising of Jairus' daughter, the Transfiguration, and the Agony in the Garden:
Mark 5:37 / Luke 8:51; Matthew 17:1 / Mark 9:1 / Luke 9:28; Matthew 26:37 / Mark 14:33
Jesus uniquely favors Peter:
Luke 5:3 / Matthew 14:28-31 / Matthew 17:24-27
None of those passages show Peter in charge.
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What does Paul correcting Peter prove to you?
It shows Peter was not in charge. Paul corrected his false ideas, and wrongful behavior.
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I'm not a historian, so there is no such thing as "my history". All I can do is read other historians. Some of the historians are Catholic, some are Protestant, some are not religious. Regardless of affiliation, they overwhelmingly agree that the early Church had bishops, and that Timothy was the first bishop of Ephesus.
In response to BaptistFundie's above post, I reject your assertion that "the RCC does not follow Peter's and the rest of the apostles' teachings. There is no indication that much of what the RCC teaches today was believed by them."
I see nothing in Catholicism that contradicts Scripture, and there is plenty of indication that the Catholic religion is the religion of the Apostles................
Indication such as_________________
Gospel writer Luke forward at Acts 20:29-30 that after the death of the apostles the apostasy would set in.
Jesus forewarned the genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake ' weed/tares ' until the Harvest Time.
The Harvest Time or the soon coming Time of Separation' to take place on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
This ongoing discord between a Catholic fundamentalist and a Baptist Fundamentalist reveals the utter folly of believing in the apostolic succession of ANY kind. We are too fallible and flawed as humans ever to possess the kind of authority such nonsense purports. We ALL have the Comforter within us and we need to learn to listen and trust what He guides us to in our hearts because that is where God has written His Truth with agape love. We just need to be in the states of mind associated with agape love to see and understand Him. To refresh your minds, here is what Jesus showed us those states of mind are:
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You realize I'm not actually a fundie, right? Nor would Mike be a "fundie".
Is that why you believe the crazy message you say some spirit gave you?
Stop lying. I never said some Spirit gave me any message. I encountered a consciousness that MATCHES EXACTLY the consciousness of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross so I use what JESUS CHRIST revealed about God's True Nature as the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness as my guide to the Truth. Jesus is the Spirit who IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life, NOT the letter that kills "written in ink" by men and He abides with us as the Comforter to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
2nd Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Paul corrected his false ideas, and wrongful behavior.
Yes, but what does that prove? No one ever said that the head of any organization is exempt from rebuke or criticism. Peter was not above correction or reproach, and neither has been any Pope since.
But I just showed you that Scripture does support it...
Peter is always listed first:
Matthew 10:2 / Mark 3:16 / Luke 6:14
Peter speaks/answers for the rest of the Apostles:
Matthew 15:15 / Matthew 16:16 / Matthew 19:27 / Luke 12:41 / John 6:68
Jesus singles Peter out:
Matthew 26:40 / Luke 22:31
Only Peter, James, and John were with Jesus on special occasions such as the raising of Jairus' daughter, the Transfiguration, and the Agony in the Garden:
Mark 5:37 / Luke 8:51; Matthew 17:1 / Mark 9:1 / Luke 9:28; Matthew 26:37 / Mark 14:33
Jesus uniquely favors Peter:
Luke 5:3 / Matthew 14:28-31 / Matthew 17:24-27
What does Paul correcting Peter prove to you?.............................................. ...........
I find Peter is Not first in Jesus' important choice at Acts 9:10-13 but Ananias is Jesus' choice.
Besides Peter the rest of the apostles and elders choose Paul and Barnabas at Acts 15:22-41.
Notice that it is Paul who takes the lead at Acts 14:26 to Acts 15:2; Galatians 2:8-9.
I find it is Paul who takes the initiative at Galatians 2:11-13 to inform Peter to his face that he was wrong at that time.
It was wrong of Peter to refuse to associate with those non-Jews so that proves a fellow believer needs correction.
Peter refers to Paul as his beloved brother in Christ at 2nd Peter 3:15.
Yes, but what does that prove? No one ever said that the head of any organization is exempt from rebuke or criticism. Peter was not above correction or reproach, and neither has been any Pope since.
I thought the pope was infallible on issues of faith and morals.
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Which text?
Good point. You don't really seem to be using one to conclude Peter was Pope, or Bishop of Rome.
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