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Jesus said "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
There is nothing here about a supposed succession, Peter did not say anything about a succession, the bible does not speak about any successor to Peter.
The rock is the foundation upon which the church is built, you cain't have a succession of foundations, there can only be one foundation. The foundation is Christ whom Peter taught.
There is nothing in scripture that says that Peter 'Can't' ' have a succession', of stewards.
In fact scripture actually demonstrates the opposite:
Christ conferred "a kingdom" and "the keys" - all clearly in scripture;
Significant responsibilities (=office/role created by Jesus) also attached therein, and also clearly laid out in scripture ("feed my sheep", "tend my lambs", "strengthen your brothers".... ).
Nothing would have needed 'to be said about a succession',
as the entirety of scriptures levy a responsibility for good stewardship (ESPECIALLY of kingdom/keys given)
including onto heirs/successors as clearly demonstrated in the OT (Isa 22-Shebna/Eliakim),
given that this Church of the Living God would outlive any particular steward.
Also clear was that this kingdom/role that Christ gave is NOT a 'kingship',
as Christ himself is the King,
rather a stewardship role,
so that 'heirship/successorship' would not pass to Kefa's natural heirs (bloodline),
but rather along spiritual lines/successors.
And the key to the kingdom is Jesus Christ, not the rcc. And the scripture you refered to was directed to all the followers of Jesus and not just Peter.
Shebna was not Jesus Christ, and neither was Eliakim, nor was Kefas;
yet each in turn held the keys to the kingdom, as did their successors.
In the OT 'the keys' were NOT Jesus Christ, nor can they be in the NT.
The keys have always symbolized authority, but not The Author Himself.
Jesus said "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
There is nothing here about a supposed succession, Peter did not say anything about a succession, the bible does not speak about any successor to Peter.
The rock is the foundation upon which the church is built, you cain't have a succession of foundations, there can only be one foundation. The foundation is Christ whom Peter taught.
There is no succession of foundations. Men have no authority to do anything except to emulate and follow Christ, period!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
And the key to the kingdom is Jesus Christ, not the rcc. And the scripture you referred to was directed to all the followers of Jesus and not just Peter.
The desire to be exclusive or special seems to pervade the interpretations of religious dogmas like a virus.
There is no succession of foundations. Men have no authority to do anything except to emulate and follow Christ, period!
On the other hand if "the household of God [is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone," what happens to that structure if the foundation (apostles and prophets) ceases to exist?
On the other hand if "the household of God [is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone," what happens to that structure if the foundation (apostles and prophets) ceases to exist?
The issue with attributing authority to self-appointed apostles and prophets is their unavoidable human fallibility and flaws. There is no magic that comes down from Heaven to prevent their human failings from distorting or corrupting whatever they think or want to covey about God. They have no basis for being a better interpreter of God than anyone else. For Christians, Jesus Christ Himself abides with us as His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
We have no need for any other guidance than the states of mind associated with His Holy Spirit. In those states of mind, we cannot sin or do anything wrong. If we find ourselves in other states of mind and fail we can repent. Other than to administer created magical sacraments or rituals entirely of human origin, what role is there for any apostles or prophets. We are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and we all report directly to Him anyway.
Shebna was not Jesus Christ, and neither was Eliakim, nor was Kefas;
yet each in turn held the keys to the kingdom, as did their successors.
In the OT 'the keys' were NOT Jesus Christ, nor can they be in the NT.
The keys have always symbolized authority, but not The Author Himself.
Well you said it yourself the keys symbolized authority.
The issue with attributing authority to self-appointed apostles and prophets is their unavoidable human fallibility and flaws. There is no magic that comes down from Heaven to prevent their human failings from distorting or corrupting whatever they think or want to covey about God. They have no basis for being a better interpreter of God than anyone else. For Christians, Jesus Christ Himself abides with us as His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
We have no need for any other guidance than the states of mind associated with His Holy Spirit. In those states of mind, we cannot sin or do anything wrong. If we find ourselves in other states of mind and fail we can repent. Other than to administer created magical sacraments or rituals entirely of human origin, what role is there for any apostles or prophets. We are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and we all report directly to Him anyway.
The issue with attributing authority to self-appointed apostles and prophets is their unavoidable human fallibility and flaws. There is no magic that comes down from Heaven to prevent their human failings from distorting or corrupting whatever they think or want to covey about God. They have no basis for being a better interpreter of God than anyone else. For Christians, Jesus Christ Himself abides with us as His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
We have no need for any other guidance than the states of mind associated with His Holy Spirit. In those states of mind, we cannot sin or do anything wrong. If we find ourselves in other states of mind and fail we can repent. Other than to administer created magical sacraments or rituals entirely of human origin, what role is there for any apostles or prophets. We are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and we all report directly to Him anyway.
I agree wholeheartedly that we are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and that we all report directly to Him. The Church was established to unite like-minded believers and to provide an institution that would preserve Jesus' teachings for posterity. Unfortunately, things fell apart quite quickly.
I don't believe that there's any church in the world today that is operating exactly as Jesus Christ would want it to be, whether it be Catholic, LDS or any one of the myriad of Protestant Churches. But I do see them as serving a purpose, and I do not believe that Christianity in any form would have survived the first couple of centuries without the institutional Church. I see the problem today as people relying too heavily on the Church (again, whatever church they belong to) to think for them, and not anywhere near enough on the Holy Spirit.
I agree wholeheartedly that we are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and that we all report directly to Him. The Church was established to unite like-minded believers and to provide an institution that would preserve Jesus' teachings for posterity. Unfortunately, things fell apart quite quickly.
I don't believe that there's any church in the world today that is operating exactly as Jesus Christ would want it to be, whether it be Catholic, LDS or any one of the myriad of Protestant Churches. But I do see them as serving a purpose, and I do not believe that Christianity in any form would have survived the first couple of centuries without the institutional Church. I see the problem today as people relying too heavily on the Church (again, whatever church they belong to) to think for them, and not anywhere near enough on the Holy Spirit.
I tend to agree about the need for the structure and promotion provided by the churches over the centuries and you are correct, things definitely fell apart very quickly. It should not be that surprising since this all happened through very barbaric eras. That a belief in God survived at all is sobering in itself as an indication that God is influencing things cognitively if not necessarily materially or physically.
There is nothing in scripture that says that Peter 'Can't' ' have a succession', of stewards.
In fact scripture actually demonstrates the opposite:
Christ conferred "a kingdom" and "the keys" - all clearly in scripture;
Significant responsibilities (=office/role created by Jesus) also attached therein, and also clearly laid out in scripture ("feed my sheep", "tend my lambs", "strengthen your brothers".... ).
Nothing would have needed 'to be said about a succession',
as the entirety of scriptures levy a responsibility for good stewardship (ESPECIALLY of kingdom/keys given)
including onto heirs/successors as clearly demonstrated in the OT (Isa 22-Shebna/Eliakim),
given that this Church of the Living God would outlive any particular steward.
Also clear was that this kingdom/role that Christ gave is NOT a 'kingship',
as Christ himself is the King,
rather a stewardship role,
so that 'heirship/successorship' would not pass to Kefa's natural heirs (bloodline),
but rather along spiritual lines/successors.
Peter's job was to lay the foundation. The church only has one foundation which is Christ.
The Roman Catholic has been built upon a different foundation i.e the clergy and the sacraments. Ignatius founded the Catholic church by his doctrine that the bishop must be accepted and obeyed as though he were Christ in person [gah]
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There is no succession of foundations. Men have no authority to do anything except to emulate and follow Christ, period!
