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Hmmm, the preoccupation with Peter is interesting. Peter, more than any other disciple, was connected to the things the Holy Spirit had to say to the Church at the beginning. It was Peter who went to the household of Cornelius. It was Peter who called out Ananias and Sapphira. It was Peter who shamed Simon, but didn't kill him. So, Peter was present for some of the most democratic moments in the history of the Church. That goes against the Catholic concept, that the individuals who make up the Church don't matter so much. Unless you don't think that democracy is ultimately about the individual, and their proper relationship to the whole? God is clever, isn't He?
Such is the kingdom. It is like a beautifully functioning democracy, where everybody is looking out for each other. Look how many of the actual teachings of Jesus were about that. We were supposed to teach that to the world. The wall of rules, do it my way, is not exactly the same thing. I think that may have begun with James.
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 09-26-2021 at 07:01 AM..
Reason: the writing process
Jesus said "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
There is nothing here about a supposed succession, Peter did not say anything about a succession, the bible does not speak about any successor to Peter.
The rock is the foundation upon which the church is built, you cain't have a succession of foundations, there can only be one foundation. The foundation is Christ whom Peter taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There is no succession of foundations. Men have no authority to do anything except to emulate and follow Christ, period!
The desire to be exclusive or special seems to pervade the interpretations of religious dogmas like a virus.
I totally agree with ya there fellers (bolded, above) - there is only ONE foundation, not 33,000 / 40,000 or whatever the the latest count is; that's the whole point of this thread!
And just as Jesus picked a bungling group of mostly illiterates including one real devil in His 12 to lead off His Church,
I'd have to say the Church has done for 2000 yrs a pretty good job of continuing to follow Christ exactly emulating Christ's example therein!!!!
It's not the paintbrush that creates the painting, rather the brush yielding to the Masters' stroke wherein the masterpiece is rendered!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The issue with attributing authority to self-appointed apostles and prophets is their unavoidable human fallibility and flaws. There is no magic that comes down from Heaven to prevent their human failings from distorting or corrupting whatever they think or want to covey about God. They have no basis for being a better interpreter of God than anyone else. For Christians, Jesus Christ Himself abides with us as His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
We have no need for any other guidance than the states of mind associated with His Holy Spirit. In those states of mind, we cannot sin or do anything wrong. If we find ourselves in other states of mind and fail we can repent. Other than to administer created magical sacraments or rituals entirely of human origin, what role is there for any apostles or prophets. We are all capable of receiving guidance from God directly and we all report directly to Him anyway.
And you are totally correct, Mystic, there is no 'magic' that one can take unto themselves, as Simon Magus tried (Acts 8:9–24),
rather it is indeed Christ acting thru His Body, which is the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth.
If we know that Christ Himself prayed that Kefas "faith not fail, and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brethren." (LUKE 22:32),
then we are assured that Christs strengths far outweighs His ordained instruments weaknesses.
Furthermore, now notice what Christ DIDN'T say there; He didn't tell Kefas 'no worries, I'll handle the brethren'...
No; Christ said "YOU must strengthen your brethren!
One word; big difference!
You'll have to take that up with Peter and Matthias, my ol' buddy V6!
ALL in the "body of Christ" will be ruling and reigning WITH CHRIST while the 12 will each be ruling over a tribe of ISRAEL. Peter didn't start the church of today and knows little about grace. PAUL was given the ministry to the GENTILES and Peter was given a glimpse of gentiles being filled with the Spirit just like Jews in Acts 10. Whether the church is down here in the earthly kingdom with the Jews remains to be seen, we are seated in the heavenlys today.
On the other hand if "the household of God [is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone," what happens to that structure if the foundation (apostles and prophets) ceases to exist?
Hmmm, the preoccupation with Peter is interesting. Peter, more than any other disciple, was connected to the things the Holy Spirit had to say to the Church at the beginning. It was Peter who went to the household of Cornelius. It was Peter who called out Ananias and Sapphira. It was Peter who shamed Simon, but didn't kill him. So, Peter was present for some of the most democratic moments in the history of the Church. That goes against the Catholic concept, that the individuals who make up the Church don't matter so much. Unless you don't think that democracy is ultimately about the individual, and their proper relationship to the whole? God is clever, isn't He?
Such is the kingdom. It is like a beautifully functioning democracy, where everybody is looking out for each other. Look how many of the actual teachings of Jesus were about that. We were supposed to teach that to the world. The wall of rules, do it my way, is not exactly the same thing. I think that may have begun with James.
On the other hand if "the household of God [is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone," what happens to that structure if the foundation (apostles and prophets) ceases to exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
That would indeed be problematic
The person (apostle) or the office (position)? (ceases to exist)
If the 'person' ceases to exist (like Judas), scripture (NT) shows us (Acts 1:15-26) that Peter used scripture (OT) - "let another fill his office" (Psalm 109:8),
to answer that portion of the question once and for all. I think they prayed & threw dice or something to select between the candidates.
If the 'office'/position of leadership 'ceases to exist'; undefined? Thoughts?
Scripture (OT) and (NT) also already show us about the office of keyholder re: keys - ISA 22 & Mt 16.
Last edited by CCCyou; 09-27-2021 at 10:58 AM..
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